New website about "the death" HUGE SPOILERS

[Guest]

[kbmum]

Mugglenet is reporting that a new website has been set up to discuss clues that the person who died really hasn't died.  Some of this is based on the fact that a sentence appears in the Scholastic version that is not in the Bloomsbury version.  The site is very slow to load, but maybe it's just very busy.  The web address and sentence are below.

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Here's the quote from the book.  The sentence that was omitted from the British version is in bold.

From the scene on top of the Astronomy Tower: "I can help you, Draco," said Dumbledore. "No, you can't," said Malfoy, his wand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'd kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine."

The website is www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com

[Morningangel-Iola]

Well if it was that important wouldn't you think it would be in the Bloomsbury version?

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Great point here...

As soon as I read the description of exactly what happened the moment that Snape killed Dumbledore, little red flags were popping up in my brain, but I didn't pay attention to them at first. This was actually the very first clue that alerted me to this whole thing.

Every other time we've seen the Avada Kedavra performed, the victim simply falls over dead:

He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor. (GoF pg 15/19)

From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF pg 638/553)

However, in Half-Blood Prince, when Snape curses Dumbledore with the same spell, Dumbledore violently flies up and away from the tower:

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight. (HBP pg 596/556)

Why would this application of the Avada Kedavra be so different from every other time we've seen it?

Perhaps his spell was different because even though those were the words Snape said, he didn't perform the killing curse at all. Remember all the importance this book gave to "nonverbal" spells? Perhaps Snape said Avada Kedavra, but the curse he was really thinking, the nonverbal one, was a different curse, one that only made it appear that Dumbledore was dead.

Even the title of the chapter this all takes place in is suspicous, "The Lightning-Struck Tower". Even though this is the name of the ominous tarot card that Trelawney was worried about back on page 543/507 in Chapter 25, is it possible that J.K. is hinting here that the spell was not Avada Kedavra, just some green lightning sparks for show?

Wordless spells that we were just introduced to in this book... perhaps DD was able to put some sort of defense up using this before Snape fired that spell? I mean, we've seen him in action against Voldemort himself in the MoM - when Voldemort fired AK against him, DD was able to dodge that pretty easily. It looked effortless against Voldemort, so surely Snape would be much less of a challenge to defend against/get out of the way of?

But if that is the case - what were DD and Snape arguing about in the Forest? If Snape knoew that he was not really killing DD, what was he so angry about? Hmmm...

[Roz]

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine."

How very interesting!

Can you believe people have spotted these things already? After all it's not been that long since it came out and it takes a while to post a Bloomsbury version to the US for comparison... or vice versa.

But what does the sentance mean? Draco isn't dead, and Dumbledore doesn't strike me as the sort who'd set up a suicide pact as it sounds like...



_{in the words of a very famous Australian Kangaroo (as opposed to British or Ukranian Kangaroos )} WTF Mate?

[ferdinand_the_yak]

But what does the sentance mean? Draco isn't dead, and Dumbledore doesn't strike me as the sort who'd set up a suicide pact as it sounds like...

Maybe it's a metaphorical reference, rather than a literal one.

They also make a brilliant observation about the chapter 'The Phoenix Lament'. Fawkes's song went on and on...

Whatever it was he was doing, Fawkes was working hard at it, and not giving up. Yet we are supposed to believe, as in the title of this chapter, "The Phoenix Lament", that it is only Dumbledore's pet echoing everyone's grief?

Are we so easily to forget that phoenix tears have powerful healing powers?

Significantly, it is the healer, Madame Pomfrey, who is brought to tears by the phoenix song. She knows the healing power of the phoenix well. She gulps with eyes wide. She recognizes something special is going on.

Also, J.K. goes out of her way to point out the healing qualities of the phoenix song, Harry feels it inside, the way he did last time he was healed by one, and most importantly, it seems to ease their pain! From these passages, it certainly seems that J.K. wants us to know that Fawkes is doing some healing!

By the way, we have another example in the books of Fawkes saving Dumbledore's life:

... one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck -- Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole. He burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. (OotP pg 814/719)

That's evidence that Fawkes is very powerful. Perhaps Fawkes is not powerful enough to bring someone back from the Avada Kedavra, but what if Dumbledore was not really hit by an Avada Kedrava, and instead hit with half a spell, or a spell to make him appear dead (as explained in the clues above)?

[Roz]

Ooooooooooooooh this is all very cheering... but I wonder why a portrait of Dumbledore appeared in his office?

Maybe though it's not an automatic thing as I had perhaps assumed when reading the book, but something that the house elves do when the Headmaster dies... any portrait of Dumbledore would do - it's as likely to be House Elf work as it is magic IMHO

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Well, I am sure that making a picture of DD appear in the office is no huge difficulty for Dumbledore to accomplish if he needed to. If he wanted people to think that he was dead, for whatever reason, he would have to cover all possible areas to ensure that his facade was as perfect as possible. I still hope that its all a huge preplanned conspiracy theory

This is what this wonderful site had to say - and I thought this as well

Does it state anywhere in a Harry Potter book that you have to be dead to be on the wall in the headmaster's office? I can't prove this, but I think it's just more likely the only requirement is you have to be a former headmaster, and it just so happens all of the former headmasters previous to Dumbledore are currently dead.

The book says:

...a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts: Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame above his desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled. (HBP pg 626/584)

Yes, we see it says Dumbledore joined the ranks of the dead headmasters. But that doesn't necessarily mean he is dead, it just means the others of the ranks he was joining were dead.

Dumbledore lives - WOOHOO!

[Roz]

Well, I am sure that making a picture of DD appear in the office is no huge difficulty for Dumbledore to accomplish if he needed to. If he wanted people to think that he was dead, for whatever reason, he would have to cover all possible areas to ensure that his facade was as perfect as possible. I still hope that its all a huge preplanned conspiracy theory

Dumbledore lives - WOOHOO!

Can you imagine all this when LOTR was first released ?

I don't know when LOTR gained the volumes of fans it has today, but I believe the books were released one at a time, the books I read were in 7 volumes not 3 so to be honest I can't remember the order of things, but JK does take her lead from LOTR

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Well we all thought Gandalf died, didn't we? And look what happened!

If something similar happens in Book 7, well, I will have to admit the LOTR 'rip-off' claimers have a point - but I for one would like to see her rip off that storyline!

[Morningangel-Iola]

It does look interesting but I really wouldn't get my hopes up. Although doesn't the funeral scene strike you as a bit muggle magic act 

[Roz]

Well we all thought Gandalf died, didn't we? And look what happened!

If something similar happens in Book 7, well, I will have to admit the LOTR 'rip-off' claimers have a point - but I for one would like to see her rip off that storyline!

Ooh yes, I reckon Dumbledores fighting a beast of shadow and water right now.. the Balrig

[ferdinand_the_yak]

... the Balrig

*groans*

[EmmasOneandOnly]

I'm a believer

2. Let's All Play Dead Together

While Dumbledore is trying to talk Draco out of killing him, Dumbledore proposes an interesting way out for Draco:

"I can help you, Draco." "No, you can't," said Malfoy, his wand shaking very badly indeed. "Nobody can. He told me to do it or he'd kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine." (HBP pg 591/552)

Dumbledore then offers to expand his mother in the protection, and even Lucius when he gets out of Azkaban.

This is very interesting, isn't it? Draco doesn't take him up on it, but Dumbledore is saying he has ways that could make it appear that Draco died when he really hadn't. Doesn't that sound exactly like what we suspect that Dumbledore has planned for himself?

IMPORTANT REVELATION! We've just learned, and can confirm, that the UK edition of HBP does NOT include the line "He cannot kill you if you are already dead." Did J.K. include that line originally, and then decide she had gone too far and made the clue too transparent and obvious? Is it possible she decided to remove it, but the line got accidentally included in the American edition anyway?

[Sharon]

Not that I am entirely convinced DD has not shuffled off this mortal coil but.......

When the other person dies in OotP (I won't name them just in case  - although shame on you if you read HBP first).  Anyway when they die JKR went out of her way to say they were dead.  Not slightly dead but really dead, not coming back, an ex-character.  She hasn't done this with DD (to my knowledge).

But are there usually many differences between the UK and USA version?  I had assumed they were the same, just with a couple of spelling differences.  I do like the idea that there is a witness protection program for wizards though 

Oh and putting HUGE SPOILERS in capital letters is like showing a moth a flame for me.  I love it    Let the speculation continue for at least two years 

[grecopa]

"He can't kill you if you are already dead"  I think Dumbledore is refering to the fact that the order can hide people, make them dissapear so to speak.  Sort of like the witness protection program here in the states.  But....It could also have a double meaning of course.  With JKR you never really know do you? 
I also think it's some kind of clue that Dumbledore flew into the air instead of just dropping dead like all the rest. 
Also, when the fake Moody was teaching DADA, he demonstrated Advara Kedavera and explained to the students that they could point a wand at him and say the words, but without the black majic behind it, nothing would happen.

[blackcat20]

It does kind of seem that dumbledore is not really dead...and in terms of him arguing with snape in the forest, maybe snape really thought he killed dumbledore, maybe it had to be that way because of the vow...

[mcgonagall]

i may have missed something but did anyone actually see dumbledore land ??

[blackcat20]

i dont think so, but everyone gathered around his body where it had fallen ( or where he carefully plonked himself on the ground  )

[mcgonagall]

well from memory we where told that he fell and then the attentio  turned to what harry was doing and then when harry was heading back there where people gathering around the body . now that would have left plenty of time for magic

[rns91294]

  What took me so long to read this topic!!  What interesting speculations.  And I have to wait how long to find out