Terrorism in London

[Guest]

[Sharon]

I still believe that the war was as much about oil interests as letting a people go free - I am not saying that the war was completely unjustified in Iraq, but the reason of WMD was invalid, and it's not the only country in the world that is suffering from hideous oppression, so why Iraq? There are too many other places in the world that they could have chosen (harping back to Zimbabwe again) and I don't see any plans to help in that area. I know that comment is going to make me very unpopular with the Americans on this board, and I know one in particular, but perhaps one of those offended people can explain to me why else it would be Iraq first?

I couldn't agree with you more Roz.  I know a lad (soldier) who has been to Iraq and will likely be sent again.  I have known him since he was a tiny baby and I do support him and all the other troops over there.  But I don't believe we should have been there in the first place.

Yes I believe whole heartedly in supporting the USA - I think Britain is more part of America than Europe, which personally suits me fine.  But I don't think either country had justification for invading Iraq at that time.  I still don't understand why they didn't finish the job before.

As for Zimbabwe if Blair had said he was sending in the troops I would have backed him 100%.  But now we don't have any troops to send, they are committed elsewhere.

I can't help but feel if the devastated people in Zimbabwe (or a dozen other countries suffering similar plights) had been sitting on huge oil reserves then we and the USA would have been in there like a shot.

As for the people who planted the bombs in London, they are murders plain and simple.  The religious side has little to do with it, it is a convenient excuse for mass murder.  If they were truly devoted to their faith, they would not pervert the text of their religious books to meet their own ends.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

The 'evidence' for WMD was always tenuous at best and I have never understood how a decision to invade Iraq could have been made based on that evidence. However, I will no pretend to know alot about this, so I shall let the politicians and world leaders debate, as that apparently is what we are actually paying them to do, and move on...

I've always believed that the race to capture Bin Ladin was a waste of time. He's one man, and yes, while he apparently masterminded 9/11 and other such atrocities, he alone could not plan everything and carry everything out. Its the followers at the grass roots level, the everyday individual that is being brainwashed to commit such terrible crimes that are responsible for the attacks occurring. It is here that I think effort should be made to stamp out the hate filled terrorist acts and the anti-Western stance, not by removing the leaders and trying to convince the people that what we are doing for them is right. A bottom approach is needed, not a top down one.

I understand America's desire to gain retribution for the tragedy of 9/11. It is both understandable and justified. However, I doubt that going in and removing Saddam Hussein is going to do the job. You take him off, there are 100 others there even more fanatical and anti-American than he was, and using Saddam as a martyr, they are going to mobilise the Iraqi people to hate the invaders even more. I use the term invaders because that is what the US and its allies are seen as by many Iraqis. While the Allied troops may see themselves as a liberation force, many of the Iraqi populace see a foreign military force coming in to their homeland and putting in a puppet government. Sure, they didn't have much say in how their country was run in the first place. But to have a foreign country barge in and do it for you isn't much better. Imagine if that was done to you - some foreign invading force arresting your president/prime minister, killing their supporters and installing a government consisting of your countrymen, but havinig their strings pulled by the invading force. I wouldn't be too impressed, regardless of how my government had treated me. IMO, it is the country that must change itself, not an outside force. How much consensus are you going to get if the decision on how to run your own country is forced on you by some other country, no matter how good their intentions?

I'm not condoning the behaviour of the fanatics... just trying to point out how it looks form their point of view. Maybe by looking at the other side's point of view, we may come up with a way of stopping the current insurgency as well as getting troops out of Iraq and back home where they belong. We are always looking at it from our point of view - 'Why are they hating us? We are there to help them!' - it doesn't make sense to us... so we may well have to look for alternate explanations.

Saddam is just a figurehead. Give them time and another will pop up. You've got thousands of potential leaders out there willing to take over. By this same logic, spending precious time and resources going after Bin Ladin may be better spent elsewhere. You don't seriously think that he comes up with all his ideas and plots by himself, do you? I am willing to bet that there are hundreds working under him or using him as a rallying point that do this. Bush, Blair, Howard. They're all figureheads. Get rid of them and America, the UK and Australia will still be America, the UK and Australia. You won't undermine these countries and the love and patriotism that these people have for their countries just by knocking off their leaders. Same with Al-Qaida, the Iraqi insurgents, etc. Replace patriotism with fanaticism and its exactly the same.

My heart goes out to all those who have died in the war on terror. American, its allies and the Iraqi and Afghan people.

[Roz]

Saddam is just a figurehead

I couldn't agree more - there are 100s more high profile Anti-West folk - in fact voicing anti-west comments is probably enough to get you elected over there.

In almost humorous news, ebay advises anyone dealing with a London postal address to be patient -  our postal system is completely back to normal, families and lives are not however, but thanks for the advice ebay 

I was speaking this morning to a guy who was doing a PhD in nuclear physics in London during the war. He told me how different things were - they just wanted to give him the PhD and rush him out to "become more useful" He had to discover most things again since the majority of the previous work done in his subject area was classified. But he got it in the end

He just commented "you had to be damned unlucky to get hit by a bomb. Just keep moving and keep living your life" and that's when bombs were falling from the sky most evenings, this event has been appalling but London really has seen worse. I suppose it's just that we regard ourselves as living in more "civilised" society these days 

(NB, I must mention we were as savage to the Germans as they were to us... there you go Tower. My Gran had a German friend (after the war of course) and they discussed just how devastated we had left her city )

[Tower]

My name was mentioned. Well, don't be surprised, if i don't take part in those more serious discussions. It's only because my English is too bad for this, really, too many complicated words and so on. It would take me too much time to understand everything completely and i wouldn't be able to find the best words for a reply, to express exactly what i mean. And then it's better not to take part in my opinion. But of course you can be sure that i don't have any differing opinion and i'm totally sad that this happened. And i'm afraid it wasn't the last act of terrorism we will witness. :'(  :'(  :'(

[grecopa]

I still believe that the war was as much about oil interests as letting a people go free - I am not saying that the war was completely unjustified in Iraq, but the reason of WMD was invalid, and it's not the only country in the world that is suffering from hideous oppression, so why Iraq? There are too many other places in the world that they could have chosen (harping back to Zimbabwe again) and I don't see any plans to help in that area. I know that comment is going to make me very unpopular with the Americans on this board, and I know one in particular, but perhaps one of those offended people can explain to me why else it would be Iraq first?

Sure Roz, there are a LOT of other countries that have oppressive regimes.  Loads of them in Africa.  But should we be policeman to the world?  It always seems like America is the first to be asked to help and the first to be slammed for "not doing enough".  The middle east is where the terrorism is coming from.  Not Zimbabwe.  There were no weapons of mass distruction, I agree.  But EVERY intellegence source including the British said that there were.  George Bush and Tony Blair did'nt pull the WMD threat out of thier butts, they listened to the information they had at hand.  If people want to call it a lie, then they have to think that Buch and Blair made it all up for thier own glory.  That kind of opinion comes more from hating certain political parties (Republican here in the US) than it comes from looking at the facts.  Both Republican AND Democrat politicains looked at the threat and voted to invade Iraq.  But these days people would have you believe that Democrats were against it from the beginning.  Not so.  In any case, sure, it would be great if we could help everyone in the world that needed it, but instead we have to choose to help those who have a direct effect on our own nation.  Yes, I know that Iraq was not the mastermind behind 9/11, but we had substancial evidence that they were a threat and we acted on it.  We did'nt invade Iraq simply because Sadam was killing his own people, but liberation and freedom and the elimination of an oppressive regime was a great byproduct of the invasion.  By the way, Sadam was'nt a "figurehead".  He was a dictator that was in control of the very lives of his people and who killed millions of them.  Let's not downplay his role in his own destruction.  And I doubt that the Iraqi people will replace him with one of the same.  Sure, the pictures we see of Iraq are 3rd world looking, but Iraq has one of the most educated populations in the Middle East.  I think that given the chance they will do fine in future elections.  I'm not offended, Roz.  I'm happy to explain the truth to those who don't agree with me.

[Roz]

The middle east is where the terrorism is coming from.  Not Zimbabwe. 

Is that right? So the people involved in 9-11 and Madrid were Iraqui were they?

There were no weapons of mass distruction, I agree.  But EVERY intellegence source including the British said that there were.  George Bush and Tony Blair did'nt pull the WMD threat out of thier butts, they listened to the information they had at hand. 

No - they pulled it from a PhD thesis that was 12 years old. If in 12-15 years time someone uses my thesis from next year as an indication on how to act upon climate change ignoring all the most recent work and intelligence I would be most concerned.

Iraq has one of the most educated populations in the Middle East. 

Zimbabwe has the same education system as the British, it was put in place there by us and the population take the exams laid out for them by the University of Cambridge Local Examinations syndicate, the same as many children here in the UK. It's one of the only places in the world where students coming to England can go straight into our Universities at 18.

[grecopa]

It looks like niether one of us will change the others mind, but looks like you misread a lot of my post.  I'm going on information that is correct.  You think you are too.  BTW, I never compared Iraqi intellegence to people in Zimbabwe.  I was comparing the Iraqi education with other middle eastern countries.  I used to have the same opinions as you when I was younger, so I can't say we don't have anything in common.   In any case, it's no use to get all worked up about this stuff on an HP board, and I really don't want to cause friction because I REALLY DO LIKE YOU, Roz.  We are just on opposite political ends it seems. Since everyone already knows where I stand on the issues (far right for those not paying attention) , I'm taking a vow not to post anymore on political subjects.  This will be EXTEMELY hard for me.  This started out as a thread to give our sympaties to the British people and it turned into something different. 

[Roz]

I THINK I'm using real info? And so do you? Hmm you're implying I'm deluded and that's just not pleasant, but this is no time for arguing.

P.S. It's not really "just" an HP board, Mark might boot us off for saying that 'tis comics, cards of all varieties and chat on everything... and anything really

[Geek Boy]

This started out as a thread to give our sympaties to the British people and it turned into something different. 

Kelly your sympathies are most appreciated as I'm sure our sympathies for America following 9/11 were most appreciated.  Both incidents were of course on a massively different scale but it hurts just the same.  I guess it's my fault this thread turned into something more "adult" - can you imagine how the FBI, CIA, Interpol, & Scotland Yard monitoring systems must have lit up like Christmas Trees when this turned to a wider view of terrorism in our world!!!

That said, I think it's great things have got a little heated - we are adults after all and although there are many younger Shackers who come here for HP and the like, forums are a place for people to air their opinions.

I'm sorry if my comments sounded like "Bush bashing" but it wasn't the intention.  I was just trying to say that the bigger world leaders are more interested in their own place in history rather than focusing on the actual problem to hand.  This is not really the case with Bush because he had his place in history long before 9/11 and London (and not through any misguided interference in issues on the other side of the world) but it's certainly the case with Blair.  He is desperate to be remembered for SOMETHING hence all the "lapdog" jibes when the war with Iraq first kicked off.  And in case you hadn't realised, I don't like Blair OR his Government 

It's interesting that people mention Zimbabwe especially following last weeks Live 8 concerts.  Mugabe is one despot who should have been removed a long long time ago.  I'm amazed no-one has assasinated him.  The people of his country have lived in fear for so long now but like all bad politicians, he manipulates the agenda to keep himself in power.  Bob Geldof wants to make poverty history but targeting the effect is not the answer.  It's the cause he wants to go after and in Zimbabwe's case it's Robert Mugabe.  A lot of people asked why we needed Live 8 if Live Aid was such a success and Geldof commented that people shouldn't tell him "it doesn't work".  But he kind of answered his own question because the problem is still there and it always will be.  I was donating my pocket money to Catholic organisations who sent missionary's into the "third world" to help the poor 28 years ago!!!  It's a terrible truth but a valid one nonetheless.  You think the aid goes to those who need it but the fact is, a lot of it gets hijacked by militant groups who use it for themselves or even try and sell it back to those is was intended for in the first place!  And until the cause is treated, we will never be able to set up sustainable, economic trading conditions with these countries.  The Saddam's and Mugabe's of this world like things just the way they are which is why the resent western interference so much.  That's not to say we shouldn't try and sort out issues such as poverty - it's a fantastic sentiment but difficult to put into practice.

I think the fact that suicide bombings still take place in Iraq even after Saddam is telling to say the least.  They get so used to it they just don't know what to do with themselves when the main issue is erased.  If Western troops pulled out would they stop killing each other?  I doubt it.  They have their freedom, we are trying to help put a proper political agenda in place to build for the future and still they kill.  They are not human beings and if the perpetrators of the London bombings are ever caught (or any terrorist for that matter), I for one would want to see the death penalty brought back.  An eye for an eye as they say.

Iran will be next, you mark my words.  Then Zimbabwe, then Israel...

And Peacepipe to you to Kelly - we're all friends here (I hope) 

Oh, and I've just heard on the news that they are evacuating a section of Birmingham city centre following intelligence reports of a threat of some kind...

[grecopa]

 Hey, Geek Boy: * * * , Kelly
Btw, I should be posting my new frame with my wizard candy in the "how to display your cards" thread soon.

[Roz]

The police expect to announce some "significant" arrests later today... lol if you are a bomber you have been warned he hee I presume that they already have them in custody

[Martyn]

As of 13.30 UK time, the police had carried out a number of raids in Leed's but have made no arrests yet!

[Morningangel-Iola]

Did you see the BNP have used the picture of the bus for their own means

I suppose they want Britain only for the 'British' people. Not sure where they are going to find them  There must be a bit of foreign in us all. I have 17th Century french myself, then theirs the Vikings and the Romans and the Normans (not in conological order). There has been comings and goings for years  So what is British? Even the Royal family has German and Greek 

[renrutha]

Yes, that's disgusting

[MakTheYak]

We've got reports of smoke at 3 underground stations... problems with trains or another attack? I don't know!

[MakTheYak]

Gone to code amber - (London underground) - apparently 3 detonators only - not full explosions - no casualties...??

[Roz]

Heh - so now London is scared of big bangs? Fair dos after 2 weeks ago.

Code Amber? Evacuate the whole network?

[ferdinand_the_yak]

We've got full live coverage here on the news ATM - quite scary - we've got conspiracy theories left, right and centre and comparisons to last fortnight

[Roz]

4th incident - on a number 26 bus - (tubes - Oval, Warren St and Shepherd's Bush). Passengers report a funny smell from a backpack on the floor at the back of the bus, no injuries but the windows have been blown out, so it's not nothing!

At the moment, only 3 tube lines are closed so they've evacuated all stations on those 3 lines, all the other lines are still running.

[Roz]

One injury at Warren Street - no info on whether it's a grazed knee or something much more serious.

lol Tony Blair was supposed to visit a school in East London this afternoon - strangely enough I think he's staying at home now

Eye witness in one of the tube blasts said it was more like a firework than a bomb, and she saw no injuries, just a nasty burning rubber smell. No smoke.