Terrorism in London

[Guest]

[grecopa]

I think everyone has said what we think of these people.  I also just hope that there is not a backlash against communities that are perceived to be responsible, however unlike Roz I am not so sure this will be the case.

I hope the muslim community in the UK will speak out against this terrorist act and work with everyone to find out who was responsible.  I recall in the time after the world trade center bombings that there were some in the muslim community in the US who spoke out, but there was virtual silence from the major religious leaders here.  To help avoid a backlash they really need to show some true outrage as BRITISH muslims.  Not just muslims who happen to live in the UK.

[Morningangel-Iola]

I must say it was surprising though that American reports had the death tole a lot higher than we are being told even now. I pray that it won't go up much more now

[Choice of Lúthien]

This is just horrible and sickening.
The reports I've read this morning say its in response to the G8 summit which would make the most sense. Death toll at 37 and injuries of more than 700. Other countries around the world are on high alert. What a world we live in.
I hope all our London members are safe. My thoughts are with you all.

[thor]

To the people on the on the forum from London, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

[Roz]

there was virtual silence from the major religious leaders here. To help avoid a backlash they really need to show some true outrage as BRITISH muslims. Not just muslims who happen to live in the UK.

We've had the Bishop of Stepney (East London just down the road from the bomb in from Aldgate) standing shoulder to shoulder with an official from the East London Mosque talking out asking for unity and prayer. So at least they are talking - the Archbishop of Canterbury (head bar the Queen of the Anglican Church) also requesting the same thing. I didn't see any Roman Catholic messages, but I hope when they do speak it will be a similar message.

Death toll at 37 and injuries of more than 700.

From what I hear that figure still stands but we must bear in mind there are many critically ill people so the toll may rise. They have talked a lot about amputations - it's just devastating

[samwise16]

its going to be way over 50 dead as they havn't brought any bodies out from kings cross underground 

[blackcat20]

Wow, so much has happened since i was online last night! Roz, have you heard from your friend yet?

Again, hoping all our uk memebers are safe and sound...

From the latest reports here in Oz, there are approx seven aussies injured, incl 1 unconcious, but they assume that number will rise....

[Morningangel-Iola]

I saw abc coverage the BBC news 24 last night and it was funny to see it from the American view.

I think there will be a lot of Nationalities hit as there were a lot of tourists.

[blackcat20]

I think I heard that there are about 100,000 aussies in london at any one time 

[Morningangel-Iola]

Isn't that more than in Austraillia :p

[blackcat20]

he he, no 

[Sharon]

How do you know it was diverted Sharon?

This bus passes near my brothers road (he lives at Angel).  He uses the service and when he saw where it had happened he realised it was not on the usual route.  I am not sure if it was a diversion already in place or one that happend due the underground incidents.

I am shocked how many people I know who were so close to the events.  A work colleague, who has just moved to Spain, found out today that her son was on the Edgeware Road train.  He has lost both legs and an eye and she is desperately trying to get home.

I do totally agree with what some people on here have been saying about Britains imigration policies but I have now seen on the TV they think it was people born and bred here that did this.  How could they do this.  I know everyone is asking this but I still keep repeating it hoping for an answer.

To help avoid a backlash they really need to show some true outrage as BRITISH muslims.  Not just muslims who happen to live in the UK.

I don't think anyone could have put this better.

[Roz]

I am shocked how many people I know who were so close to the events.  A work colleague, who has just moved to Spain, found out today that her son was on the Edgeware Road train.  He has lost both legs and an eye and she is desperately trying to get home.

I'm just devastated to hear this - one friend of mine was in the next carriage to the Edgeware Road train. My deepest sympathies go out to your friend. My great uncle came back from the war missing both his legs, to add on top of that losing an eye, it's just so awful. Everyone tends to focus on the deaths, not the devastating effects on "survivors"

[Morningangel-Iola]

Yes so peoples lives have been changed forever Even those lucky enough just to have cuts and bruses will have terrible mental problems. I feel really sorry for your friend, its like trenches in the WWI but its not these poeple where only trying to get to work

[Geek Boy]

First of all, it is just shocking to see the aftermath of yesterdays events.  Hearing some of the eyewitness accounts brings a lump to the throat and a dreadful feeling in the pit of your stomach.  You just cannot imagine how awful it must have been especially with no warning.  One minute your happily sitting on a bus, nodding your head to a tune on the ipod, the next... well, there's not much else to say really  :'(

I know this is going to sound racist (and I know I'm going to get loads of stick from you guys for saying it) but if these animals hate Britain, it's people and it's way of life so much then why the hell don't they just go home?  Inflict misery and suffering on themselves instead of others.  Because that's all they do in their own country anyway - suicide bombings are a daily occurence.  They do it in the west because it's less common and therefore more shocking and hurtful.  And if they did go home, they'd continue to do it because it's a way of life for them.  There is nothing holy or divinely inspired in killing yourself and many others in the process.  It's just sick.  What about the freedom that all our soldiers, UK & US fought for in Iraq?  The freedom a great many of them died for?  OK it wasn't our freedom they were fighting for but it makes you wonder why we bothered to get involved in the first place.  Of course we all know the answer to that, the greater glory of Messrs Blair & Bush.  The only problem is that overthrowing Saddam and trying to stamp out terrorism in general has brought misery to the rest of us.  You try to help someone and all they do is throw it back in your face.  I have to wonder why Muslims come to any western country in the first place.  You see them walking around in Jilbab's or the full head to toe black garb with a slit to peer out of (which is sinister anyway) and you can't help thinking that the idea of coming to the west was to get away from that kind of oppression.  To them however, it's a religion, one to be practiced wherever they are.

Maybe we just aren't meant to live together in harmony.  Maybe that's why we have seas and continents separating us, different religions to believe in, different ways of life to live by.  Trying to understand them all in one big melting pot is perhaps the mistake we are making...

And I agree with other shackers who've commented on Britains immigration policy.  It needs an overhaul.  The only problem with the word "restrictions" is the racist overtone it implies.  But would non muslims be welcome with open arms in muslim countries?  Racism goes both ways I'm afraid.

[grecopa]

OK it wasn't our freedom they were fighting for but it makes you wonder why we bothered to get involved in the first place.  Of course we all know the answer to that, the greater glory of Messrs Blair & Bush.  The only problem is that overthrowing Saddam and trying to stamp out terrorism in general has brought misery to the rest of us. 

Ok, I tried to resist but I have to post.  Maybe this is a bad analogy and I don't want to offend any LOTR fans out there, but this is how I see it.  Every time I watch ROTK I think about terrorism today.  It does no good to run from it and you can't pretend it isnt there.  The only option is to stand, fight and stamp out evil where you find it, even if it's not in your own backyard.  Otherwise evil takes over.  Maybe not all at once, and maybe you don't see it happening in leaps and bounds, but evil eventually chips away at everything that is good in the world and destroys it.  So we fight.  Even though it seems like a loosing battle, fighting back is the only option.  Does fighting in Iraq bring freedom to me and you?  No, but it brings some freedom to some people in the middle east who want it.  And maybe it signals the beginning of the end of the horrible repression over there.  To quote US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice- "Freedom is contageous."  It will spread.  Will things get worse before they get better?  Probably.  But they WILL get better.  If we give up or turn away to protect ourselves all is lost.  The people blowing up innocents are the ones who don't want thier countrymen to be free.  But there are plenty of people in the middle east who do want freedom.  I do agree with you though that "The melting pot" is a joke.  Lots of immagrints just want to move thier country over with them instead of assimilating into the new one.  As far as the muslim religion goes, i'm no expert.  What I do know is that there are about 100 muslim words for God, and none of them mean love.  Still though I can't blame all muslims.  I just wish more would stand up with us against evil.

[Geek Boy]

fighting back is the only option.  Does fighting in Iraq bring freedom to me and you?  No, but it brings some freedom to some people in the middle east who want it.

And fighting back is what they want isn't it?  Full scale war, one religion pitted against another, each believing that there God is greater or more good?  We'd head back to the Dark Ages.  Religion is such a contentious subject and history shows it.

As for bringing freedom to those who want it, what use is it if they live their lives in fear of those who don't?  I don't think terrorists want freedom, they just want confrontation and to indoctrinate others into believing their way of life is better.

On the other hand, when I hear muslim extremists saying they will turn Britain into an Islamic state, it makes me so mad.  What gives them the right to think they can change a country they came to into something they want it to be?  As I said, racism goes both ways.

We are, as a nation, far too politically correct and it's all Blairs fault.  It's why we have gangs of yobs running around with no respect or manners, who sue you for defending your own property if they get hurt during a burglary or act of vandalism.  And it's why religious extremists think they can get away with yesterdays tragic events because people are too scared to stand up for fear of being branded a racist.

I wasn't saying we shouldn't fight but maybe if people just got on with their own lives in their own countries without interference from others, without others trying to "understand" them, perhaps we wouldn't have to.  Unfortunately, the likes of Blair and Bush cannot help but interfere.  After all, are they not saying that middle eastern countries should lead their lives according to western rules?

[grecopa]

As for bringing freedom to those who want it, what use is it if they live their lives in fear of those who don't?  I don't think terrorists want freedom, they just want confrontation and to indoctrinate others into believing their way of life is better.

Of course the terrorists don't want freedom.  But not every muslim is a terrorist.  You're right, indoctrination and the distruction of Isreal and Christian nations is what they want.  But you say what use is freedom if you live in fear?  Aren't they living in fear as it is?  Is'nt it better to be free with the hope of peace in your lifetime or for your children than being oppressed with no hope?

I wasn't saying we shouldn't fight but maybe if people just got on with their own lives in their own countries without interference from others, without others trying to "understand" them, perhaps we wouldn't have to.

Unfortunately, it's a bit too late to ignore the problem.  The fight has been taken to us.  I have no interest in "understanding" the terrorists.  I don't want to reform them or convert them.  I want them dead.  Plain and simple.  9/11 was brought on by people who wanted to start a war and they got one.  Now it's our duty to win it.  The terrorists aren't interested in just "living thier own lives."  They want to control the lives of everyone else.  If they were content to only terrorize the people in their own countries, then they wouldn't have attacked the world trade center, Spanish railways, British buses, etc.

Unfortunately, the likes of Blair and Bush cannot help but interfere.  After all, are they not saying that middle eastern countries should lead their lives according to western rules?

No.  They are saying that if you harbor terrorists, fund terrorists, or in any way are sympathetic to terrorist acts, you will be held accountable.  They are saying that ALL people deserve freedom.  Not just white Euopeans and Westerners.  If you want to bash Blair, that's your right as a voter.  I respect his backbone in the war against terrorism and I like him, but I don't know anything about his domestic policies.  If you want to bash President Bush, you are also free to have your opinion, but just know that as an American he is MY President, and I'm more than a bit offended by it.  With that said, let's both clear the air and declaire a truce.  I think we're more on the same side than we know. Peacepipe, Geek Boy.

[Roz]

I know this is going to sound racist (and I know I'm going to get loads of stick from you guys for saying it) but if these animals hate Britain, it's people and it's way of life so much then why the hell don't they just go home? Inflict misery and suffering on themselves instead of others.

Agreed - But the problem is isolating these people - so many people (inc Muslims) do love it here. When Mark was working in a cinema in Stepney Green (Mile End Road, large Muslim population) and 9-11 occurred, more than one commented that they would go and fight for Britain in Afganistan if necessary!

How do you discover those who believe this is home, and those who wish to cause devastation and suffering?

I think we still need a policy to let true refugees in (like the folk from Zimbabwe who need us) and other places, especially those places we have colonised in the past and therefore have some responsibility for.

I still believe that the war was as much about oil interests as letting a people go free - I am not saying that the war was completely unjustified in Iraq, but the reason of WMD was invalid, and it's not the only country in the world that is suffering from hideous oppression, so why Iraq? There are too many other places in the world that they could have chosen (harping back to Zimbabwe again) and I don't see any plans to help in that area. I know that comment is going to make me very unpopular with the Americans on this board, and I know one in particular, but perhaps one of those offended people can explain to me why else it would be Iraq first?

[Choice of Lúthien]

I still believe that the war was as much about oil interests as letting a people go free - I am not saying that the war was completely unjustified in Iraq, but the reason of WMD was invalid, and it's not the only country in the world that is suffering from hideous oppression, so why Iraq? There are too many other places in the world that they could have chosen (harping back to Zimbabwe again) and I don't see any plans to help in that area. I know that comment is going to make me very unpopular with the Americans on this board, and I know one in particular, but perhaps one of those offended people can explain to me why else it would be Iraq first?

Well, this American agrees with you completely. I have never argued that taking Saddam out of power and installing (or attempting to) democracy in Iraq is not a worthwhile goal. Because it is and the people of Iraq are better off without Saddam. What I object to is the that was not the premise for the war, the supposed weapons of mass destruction were. Iraq was a threat to the USA and action needed to be taken. There has been so much evidence showing that this premise was grossly exagerated and largely fabricated. This was was about oil, and perhaps also a sense of revenge for Bush. As an American, I object to being lied to about why this war was started, a war that has gone on much longer than the administration promised (but that's no real surprise to many of us) and has cost how the lives of how many soldiers, and not just from the US. This war was started under false premises and that is not acceptable to me. Not to mention that Bin Landen, who was responsible for 9/11, is still alive and free. Seems to me the US would have been better off devoting more resources to ensuring the capture of a known threat, instead of a potentially weak threat.
I'll stop my rant and get off my soapbox now though.