April 15th... What's so significant about today?

[Guest]

[kbmum]

it's nice to know there are others on the Forum who *may* be older than me!

There are a few of us who are old enough to be parents to some of the forum members, myself included!

[Nienna]

ahhhhh right, seeing as you're a youngster I'll let you off then!

Posted by: kbmum  Posted on: Today at 12:21:16am  
Quote from: Nienna on Today at 12:06:15am
Quote:
it's nice to know there are others on the Forum who *may* be older than me!
 

There are a few of us who are old enough to be parents to some of the forum members, myself included!
 
 

I'm sure I'm right there with you kbmum!

[Anna]

btw ... I didn't cheat and google the date to see what it would find either!

I did!

[mcgonagall]

2 of my kids love to read the forum whenever i am on here so i am old tooo
Hi scott and jennifer

[Roz]

OK OK you all win there were tonnes of monumentous things happening on April 15th.  

What I was looking for was Da Vinchi's birthday and Major Dick Williams liberated the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

Major Williams complained that people in their 20s and 30s do not care about the Holocaust and the concentration camps and the hideous things that went on during the war, and it's not true, not for me anyway. When I was in Jerusalem I took a bus outside the city to go to the Holocaust museum and came out feeling pretty ill actually. It's just the symbolism of it all - a child's shoe lying on a cobbled street - what happened to that innocent child?

And outside they have unfinished/broken pillars representing the millions of never completed lives.

Maybe you don't think a message board is the right place for this, but it's today's new media, the way we can discuss things across the globe, so why not? (and we can get back to our frivolous chatter about cards any time we like because thanks to people who gave their lives for us during the war we are completely free).

[ferdinand_the_yak]

While some people remain apathetic to the horrors of that period in time, I think that for alot of them the enormity of the genocide that occurred overwhelms them and numbs the effect. 6 million (to many people) faceless victims. While I realised that what had happened in the concentration camps and death camps in WWII was tragic, it could never really be conveyed in books which was where I learned of it. We studied a text in my HSC (final school exams) about the author interviewing his Jewish parents about their experiences in the war and soon afterwards went on a study excursion to the Jewish museum in Sydney. Listening to the talks given by some survivors and the videos and displays of the camps and the conditions that people lived and died in really brought alot of it home to me, it personalised the suffering of a few of the millions that were killed.

Horrible. I hope we have finally learned from our mistakes, though given  our recent form - maybe not

[MakTheYak]

I could scarce believe it - I was recently reviewing a chart of the numbers of dead of the countries invaded by the Germans and I had to stare at it for about a minute before it sunk in - that couldn't be right - 72% of Jews in the countries occupied were lost - 72% - I still haven't got over it actually.
 

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Did you read some of the accounts and testimonies from the soldiers that were responsible for these things?

'We were just following orders from above'

Amazing... group mentality (not sure of the exact term off the top of my head) I have heard of this, but to see it applied on such an enormous scale, it really takes your breath away.

Has anyone seen 'The Pianist' with Adrien Brody? An amazing film, but very graphic in parts. It doesn't concentrate on conditions inside the death camps, more the occupation of Warsaw, but that was shocking enough. Brody pulled off an amazing performance as a Jewish man whose entire family were taken to the death camps and he was left hiding in Nazi occupied Warsaw. I walked out of it thinking 'That guy deserves an Oscar for that'. And a few months later... he did

[sketchqueen]

I was about 12 or 13 when I read Elie Wiesel's book, Night and it just stopped my heart cold.

My grandfather's family was lucky - they all got out and came to New York to start new lives, but they were also wealthy and could afford unusual means to escape.

When we went to Amsterdam for a vacation, we made a point of taking Alexander to Anne Frank's house - not that he'd ever remember, but still, who knows what gets ingrained in babies brains. It was important to us though, in amongst all the museums and parks to do this one thing.

[Roz]

Where were your family Joanna?

I haven't read that book, only Anne Frank's diary (who hasn't?) which was heart breaking enough. I was also very young when I went to Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam but probably not as young as Alexander, but I still remember it so there's hope



P.S. Jo - I just don't know what to say about your "orders from above" - I just don't know what to say for once I am speechless.

[sketchqueen]

Well, Alexander was only 2 at the time, so I'm doubtful, but as a parent, I'm of the mindset that it's the experience, not necessarily the memory thereof that shapes a child.

As for Pete's family, I'll have to check - he's technically my grandmother's second husband - my side comes from the first husband But he's been around so darn long now I forget that when I type things.

[savage727]

One of the things that bothers me to no end is the Revisionists who claim that The Holocaust never took place!      What planet are they living on?  

It is very upsetting isn't it Mark about those figures you quoted!  Even more unthinkable is just the losses the Soviet Union incurred during World War II - 27 million of its soldiers and civilians killed by the Germans!  The Holocaust was bad at 6 million but what do you call what the Russian's suffered?  Mind boggleing!  

FTY:  I have read numerous accounts and seen video about what you are talking about.  It goes way beyond Group Mentality - there was pure hatred of the Jews and many relished in the extermination process.
There were some truely sick and deranged people in Germany and it took allot of Allied Soldiers lives to destroy that evil empire.  I have seen The Pianist and Brody did do an excellent acting job and deserved the Oscar he received.  

I have been a student of World War II for over 35 years and the period never ceases to amaze and educate me.  I for one will never forget as long as I live and I hope the rest of humanity never does.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Ed - I agree that it is true that many of the people responsible for those atrocities did harbour a deep set hatred for the Jewish people that they murdered and did 'enjoy' what they did. But many were coerced, blackmailed and threatened to do so as well. War does funny things to many people and as a result they can do things that they would not do under noramal circumstances. The Soviet Union figures are astonishing - I think they have been overshadowed by the horros of the Holocaust which seem more revulsive and shocking. (I disagree, but I think that generally this is the case)

As for those revisionists! Who are they kidding???

[beckham1]

Wow, glad I read this thread, I thought it was about tax day in the US.  I also visited Anne Franks house and a concentration camp in Germany and we saw the oven's and the shower's they would gas the people in and many other horrible and sad things.  It really is incredible to stand in those places that so many people were killed just for hate and prejudice.  I am always frustrated to hear all of the racism against Jewish people from the Middle East, it just doesn't make sense regardless of disagreements on land, etc.

I also am glad Savage that you brought up all the Russian casualties, it is astonding.  Do you know how many US soldiers died in WWI and WWII?  I bet you do.  My grandpa was an engineer on a bomber based in England in WWII and actually saved his crew when the plane was having problems and looked like they were going to take a plunge in the Ocean.  Actually they live in New Hampshire and he has an incredible scrap book from when he was in the Air Force.

[beckham1]

It is frustrating to me that people think the small amount of casualties we suffer in todays wars are not compared with all those in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc.  

I am not pro war by any means, but I am certainly PRO TROOPS  I can't stand it when these liberal idiots we have in California sit on the street corners having there anti war protests.  I usually roll the window down and give the old  F*$&  @!F greeting.  In my opinion the anti war protest is anti troops, too.  I guess that is thier right, but I am always tempted to clip one of them with the front end of my car....opps must have walked out in front of me...sorry now I am just being mean.

People in this country just don't understand freedom isn't free.   I recently was at the local college campus and saw a sign on one of the classroom doors saying how many Iraqi civilian causualties there had been since the war started.  I wanted to tear it down I was so PO'd because it didn't say anything about how many people Saddam had killed during his time in power.?.

Why do so many people think they know all the details that the President or other high ranking gov. officials use to make the decisions they do.  Anyway enough political ranting....peace and safety for all.

[savage727]

Beckham:

I could not agree with you more on every point you made.  Yes I do know what our losses were in both World Wars and they are minute compared to the Soviets and Chinese losses in World War II.  Your Grandfather was probably in the 8th Air Force if he was stationed in England flying in bombers.  Do you know if he flew in the heavies -  B-17's and B-24's or Medium bombers like the B-25 and B-26?  Where in New Hampshire does your Grandfather live?  I live in Franconia in Northern New Hampshire.

I am also disgusted at the whole Middle East situation.  I have been to so many places there in my career, seen and interacted with most of the major and minor players, and would love to walk away from that whole mess and let them drown in their own stupidity but that is not reality and it is not going to happen.  This country will never let Isreal fall period.  As for the rest nobody would ever have cared if there was not oil.  Unfortunately our economy and daily lives are so entwined with oil that we cannot walk away from protecting it.  Yes I know we should all have conservation and less reliance on foreign crude but the vast majority of people are not inclined to change their lifestyle and technology is not there yet as a cost effective means to replace fossil fuels.  I hope to see it in my lifetime but I am not holding my breathe.

Your point is well taken on the amount of casualties we suffer in relation to past wars.  The problem here again is reality.  Most people have not served in the armed forces and do not have a clue as to what is involved.  When I speak and meet with Vets from World War II they ask me about current operations and the topic almost always gets around to casualties and they just smile and say that the combined total losses we have suffered to date in Iraq & Afghanistan do not even equal one days losses in some of the battles they fought in.   There is war and then there is really war!  

Please do not get me started on the anti war movement and their so called support for the troops.  We all know bullsh*t when we hear it and none of us believes them.   I am glad you kept your temper and front fender clean.  You would really not want to tarnish up your nice front end now would you?    It is amazing how so many people forget the genocide Saddam inflicted upon his own people and neighbors.  

Freedom is not free and people easily forget or avoid that because it makes them feel uncomfortable.  I think it is because they have done nothing in their lives to contribute to that freedom and deep down they feel ashamed and in my opinion rightly so.  Have you ever read Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers?  A second rate movie and sequal were made.  The point is that the only people who got to vote were the Veteran's because of their service and sacrifice to country.  Interesting theory.

FTY:

Yes there were some who were coerced but the number is minute and that in no way makes them any less guilty.   You have to remember we are not only talking about the conduct during the Holocaust here but the conduct of the Germans in the entire war.  In every country they conquered they destroyed innocent men, women, and children in addition to that nation's armed forces.  There was no blackmail or coersion when regular infantry units rounded up civilians and executed them as reprisals for the Underground movement in so many countries.  It does not provide an excuse for the execution of masses of prisoners of war who surrender on the battlefield.  No it goes much deeper to the thought of their being The Master Race and the rest of us vermin to do whatever they wanted with us.  Most Germans felt slighted with the terms and settlement of peace made upon them from the victors of World War I and now it was their turn to pay back all who made their country suffer from that point to the start of the Second World War.   Hitler and his henchmen just brought out all that pent up hatred and provided a release for it.  The rest is history unfortunately.

     

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Ed - I agree with all that you are saying, but the numbers are not minute... can you imagine that each and every German military personnel was an anti Semetic, bloodthirsty butcher? As I am sure you know, German men were drafted into the armed forces - desertion or refusal to serve meant imprisonment or death for you and/or your family. Many had no choice, and I am almost certain that many did not like what they were asked to do. Yes, this is not an excuse for their behaviour, but one cannot generalise and say that all Germans were evil and that they all relished their 'duties'. Think of the officer in 'The Pianist' that saved Adrien Brody's character from certain execution. Think Oskar Schindler from the novel 'Schindler's Ark'. What was in it for them? Nothing. What did they have to lose? Everything, including their lives. Sure they may have been in the minority, but it goes to show that not all members of the armed forces or the German public were inhuman monsters or supported Hitler's beliefs.

Germany's recent exoneration of soldiers who deserted the Nazi army during the Second World War could be interpreted as recognition of the legal validity of their behavior, were the desertions undertaken to avoid participation in Nazi atrocities. Moreover, the German government expressed sympathy for Germany’s Nazi-era conscientious objectors, thousands of whom were executed, imprisoned or sent to concentration camps. Three hundred surviving conscientious objectors were each awarded $4,430 as compensation.

Don't get me wrong - I am not condoning or supporting the Nazi regime (heaven forbid ) but I think it is important to highlight that not all were bad and that not all wanted to do what they were told. Again I do not belive that this justifies their actions AT ALL.

About their treatment of civilians in occupied territories - sadly this is not unique to the German armed forces - many occupations by many other nations in other armed conflicts have the same result. But I do agree that the chilling, systematic and deliberate 'extermination' policy of the Nazi regime is one of the most horrific of all time.

Saddam's regime was horrific and had to be taken down. The occupation had not turned out perfect - but how would anyone propose to do it in a perfect way? No country is going to take kindly to some other country(ies) coming in and taking out their government and reinstalling a new one, especially not a country that has been enmeshed for so long in such authoritarianistic rule and with a culture and religion so different to the 'Coalition of the Willing'.

As for anti-war protests I hate the way they are directed at the troops. Of course war sucks - who wants to see people die? The reason behind the war may seem unfair - sure. But to take it out on people who are serving their country's interests is very unfair and unjustified. I can see why you take such a strong stance on it, but even as a 20 year old who has never seen conflict in her life and living in Australia, I can see this point of view. To criticise poeple who are risking their lives doing something you wouldn't dare to do is unforgivable.

[savage727]

Hello FTY:

I disagree.  The numbers are minute compared to the millions who wore the uniform.  I do not want to leave you with the impression that every German soldier was bloodthirsty, far from it.  You have to portray the events in the light of the time they occurred and not by today's standards.

I base my statements on years of research and the reading of thousands of pages of classified and declassified German Army after action reports which were filed methodically by the Germans during the entire war.  These were captured at the end of the war and made available to historians, researchers,  and authors.  I have read and seen too much to convince me otherwise.

You bring up a good point about The Pianist but look at when the help was offered.  It was during the very last days of the war when Berlin was being overrun by the Russians and all hope was lost.  Oskar Schindler was an outstanding exception to the rule and is justly remembered by many in Isreal and elsewhere as a true hero and compassionate human being.  

The Nazi Regime is the most horrific of all time hands down.  Nothing else in history even comes close.   The Japanese were horrible but in other ways.  Look at all the rioting going on in China now about Japan's school texbooks downplaying its role of aggression and brutality in China and Asia during the war.  The Chinese suffered mightly under Japanese oversight and are outraged over the Japanese inability to come to terms with what they did.  The Chinese people have taken matters into their own hands.  They also are very concerned that Japan is bidding for a seat on the U.N. Security Council and they do not trust them.  It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Fair enough, I respect your opinion and I know this issue will never be resolved as there is no 'right' answer. It also depends on what you classify as minute. It is very subjective. Who knows what went on in the minds of those that committed those atrocities? How many did what they did because they enjoyed it and how many did it because they were forced to? Only they do and most have taken their thoughts and secrets to the grave.

I have deep seated interests in the outcome of the Chinese-Japanese WWII issue. Have you read much about the Pacific WWII situation? I know less about this than the Europen front, but I studied Australia's role in SE Asia and read about some of the atrocities that the Japanese committed.

If you can, try to get your hands on a book called 'Four Fires' by an Australian author called Bryce Courtenay. He is a renowed Aussie author and has written several brilliant books. This book is about a poor Irish Catholic family in Australia in the 1960s (from memory). The father fought in the Pacific war and tells the story to one of his sons. He tells him of his experiences in the war and how he survived the Sandakan death marches.This is wrapped around several other storylines about life in Australia during 1960.

Well researched and a brilliant read

[savage727]

Hi FTY:

And I respect your opinion.  Honestly I am very impressed and glad to see people your age take an active interest in this subject.  It is one of the defining moments in history.

I can honestly tell you that I am a subject matter expert on World War II in the Pacific and that is where my main historical interest has been due to the fact that my Dad fought from 1942 until 1945 in five campaigns as a U.S. Marine.  He is the main reason why I joined the Marine Corps out of college and why I made it a career.  I have visited and walked most  of the battlesites in the Pacific and had a book published in 1999 about the Battle for Iwo Jima in 1945.  

I am well aware of Japanese atrocities from so many Vereran's I have interviewed and from my own Dad.  Thank you for the info on 'Four Fires'.  I will check it out.  I am familiar with the Sandakan episode.  There were many more.  The War in the Pacifc was so different in so many respects from the one in Europe.  The Pacific War was one of annilation where no quarter was asked nor none given by either side.  It was a racial war on both sides as well.   There was pure hatred of the Japanese for their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and for the way they fought the war that lasts to this day here.  Very few of the close to 1,000 Pacific World War II Veteran's I have met in my life have forgiven the Japanese for what they did to them and their friends.  I could tell you stories that would raise the hair off the back of your head.  My own Father until the day he died in 2000 never forgave them.  

The Japanese are a strange people.  They cannot come to grips with their past and so they bury it and pretend it never happened or that they were the victim as in the yearly bleet about the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  They are lucky we only had 2 bombs to use on them and even then the militarists wanted to continue the war.  

You are much closer physically to Japan and so the issue is of major importance to Australia and all the Pacific Rim area as to Japan's future role in the Pacific and the world should she become a Security Council Member.  I personally do not think that they should become a member as it would cause much more intense rivalry between China and Japan both economically and militarily.  Japan has been quietly rearming for several years now to the concern of her neighbors who all to vividly remember what went on last time and they just do not trust Japan.  When something like this historical issue of Japan's role in World War II cannot be faced honestly by the country you can understand the concern her neighbor's feel.  Let me know what you hear on this issue from where you sit.  

If you have any questions on the Pacific War please feel free to ask.