The Yak Shack Forum

I generally go to Snopes.com to find out more about rumours I've heard.  I was suprised to find out what they say about The Golden Compass and it's author.   
I'm in no way saying that you should'nt see the movies or read the books.  That's totally up to the individual. 
I also don't want to start a thread about the good or bad of organized religion.  What you believe is your own business.  I don't feel the need to convince you of mine, please don't feel the need to convince me of yours.
I'm posting the link stricktly for information purposes.  Everyone is entitled to make up thier own minds. 
The blue box at the beginning are simply emails people have written to Snopes.com.  The part on the white is Snopes.com response.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp)

Thanks for posting Kelly!!! I had NO idea!!!!!!  :o >:(

This is absolutely shocking...perhaps disturbing is a better word. I had absolutely no idea. I've never read the books, so I cannot speak to their content or meaning. The trailers to the film appear quite benign, which, I suppose, is fitting with the article. I'm really floored right now.

It's also interesting to think on what it means about the people who vote for the Carnegie Medal for Children's Literature ...

Didn't J.R.R. Tolkien have some heated discussions about C.S. Lewis' anti-religion opinions, when Lewis was younger? There have been a huge number of cases where the public has embraced a theme in a book or book series, and that theme was the opposite of what the authors said they intended.

This one will be interesting to watch. Kelly, I'm cluing in some of the Church groups I know who have met to discuss the Christian themes of the Harry Potter universe.  ;)

Your absolutely right.  I believe C.S. Lewis became a Christian after his many talks with J.R.R. Tolkien.  I also remember something about Tolkien not particularly liking the Narnia series because he thought the Christian themes were too obvious.

I recently read the "His Dark Materials" trilogy. I loved it and thought it was very well written. I've read quite a few fantasy novels, so it wasn't a big step up from Harry Potter (those of you that read fantasy novels may sometimes get blank stares from others when you start talking about "daemons" etc ;)

The anti-religion element is definitely there. When I was reading it, I kept thinking "how the hell with THIS be allowed past the censors?" But the movie will undoubtably be a very dilute version of the book given the preiviews for it.

One point - why must another English novel have its title changed AGAIN for American audiences? (the actual name of the book is "Northern Lights", not "The Golden Compass")

And I don't think Nicole Kidman is pretty enough to be Mrs Coulter either ;)

A lot of what's called "religiously influenced" literature could just as easily have been called anti-religion. I read Chronicles of Narnia, and didn't see all that much influence until later parts of the series, and then I could have been convinced that the themes were parody or satire.

As a science fiction fan, I've seen loads of stories that were clearly anti-religion, but usually the author or TV writer wasn't outspoken about it in interviews. Maybe it's expected in SF and a bit more unusual in fantasy writing, regardless of what some of the book-banners have imagined.

Well, I've now read the first book. And regardless of what the author may say, I don't see anything that's particularly "anti" any particular religion.

*** WARNING OF POSSIBLE "THEME" SPOILERS, BUT NOT FOR THE PLOT ***

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What we have here is a "parallel universe" story, and in fact that's part of the whole concept for the story. The "Church" doesn't look very good, but this was a parallel Church that evolved after Pope Martin Luther moved the Vatican to Geneva long ago, and forms of the Inquisition survived into modern day. The fact that people who have followed any specific religion haven't always been saints, and that government or social clans can seek power, isn't news. If you're making social comments in fiction, it's easier to make your point if you show a society that has some overlap with the society or history the readers are familiar with.

One thing I thought was delightful was the fact that there were numerous scholars who were engaged in the field of "Experimental Theology."

I puzzle a bit about this series being called "children's" books, other than fantasy fiction is typically associated with the young, while I suppose that world history and romance and detective fiction is supposed to be more suitable for adults. The language is rather dense in places, reminiscent of Victorian speech. And there's plenty of violence, drug use, gang killings, adultery, and so forth.

So I can see where they could make a PG movie out of the adventure, as a parent I wouldn't aim kids at the book unless they were at least mid-teens and/or fairly sophisticated. This ain't Goosebumps level.

Well I am reading Northern Lights now and a really enjoying the book, I am christian but not necisarily a practicing christian ie I dont go to church but do have a faith and pray regularly. I agree with Jeff I would not endorse this to be read by children as it is quite graphic in parts and a lot more shocking and scary than Harry potter. I cant really comment on the religious undertones of this book but upon reading this article have been a little concerned for the real underlying meanings of the story especially after the authors comments on "Killing God"
I will continue to read the trilogy keeping within the contexts of the book and its story but I do find it concerning that the books may have an alterior motive to impose anti religious views especially on the minds of children.

Of course, you might say that about a lot of speculative fiction. Many of the most prominent science fiction authors may have called themselves atheists, but I think the analogy is closer to humanists. "Fighting against the big conspiracy" is fascinating, whether it's a secret government agency, Freemason secrecy, Roswell cover-ups, Rimbaldi artifacts, Nostradamus, or a fictional Church that has the same power that you saw in Europe centuries ago in our universe. Except for this author's statements that he had a hidden agenda, I don't see more proselytizing than you'd see in Star Trek or privately from Gene Roddenberry. They teach "Who Mourns for Adonais" in college religion classes.

"Killing God" might be suggested as a motivation for one of the characters later in the series, but that character isn't portrayed as sympathetic. If the Dark Materials trilogy is specifically propounding science over religion, its pursuit of "science" looks like amazingly like the studies of the Jedi Council. After a bit of thought I can find a parallel for every major character in the Star Wars pantheon. Which makes it all seem more thought-provoking than inSidious.

Of course, when I finish all three books I might change my mind. With Chronicles of Narnia, I didn't feel I was being whacked on the head by theology until the very end.

Well said. But don't forget that there are a lot of non-thinking "Sheeple" out there.
As far as the "what they say about The Golden Compass and it's author..." here's a quote for them:
“Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small  minds talk about people.",  Eleanor Roosevelt

That might be a valid argument, but we're not talking about speculative fiction in general.  The author of The Dark Materials trilogy specifically said "My books are about killing God", not that it might be a motivation for one of his characters, or that it's a fight against conspiracy.  Instead of coming up with a theory of my own, I'll just take the authors word for it.

I admit that I haven't read all the Narnia books, but I thought "The Magicians Nephew" was full of Christian references.  That one is listed first in my series, but maybe it's the last one in the series you read.  It's a bit hazy since I read it last time a couple of years ago, but I remember parallels to The creation, The Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, Satans fall, probably a bunch of others that I can't remember off the top of my head.  I don't recall any in "The Horse and His Boy" though.

Interesting points all round. As Jeff said, the language used in “His Dark Materials” is far more sophisticated than in Harry Potter and the Narnia series, so I too am not sure why they have been labelled “children’s books”. I would think that the targeted age groups would be at least 14-15+. Harry Potter and Narnia I would say could be aimed at 8+

Assuming that the target audiences are rather different, I think Pullman’s references to “killing God” are made to an audience with considerably more sophisticated reasoning and judgment abilities than the younger Potter/Narnia readers. Given that older kids have likely formed their own opinions on their religious beliefs (or lack of!), I think that the fact the HDM makes many anti-religious sentiments would create less impact on these kids than, say, 8 year olds. So unless you are easily swayed by what you see and hear, I really don’t think it’s that much of an issue. However, I believe that many religions don’t think much of people’s ability to think objectively, and assume people take a “sheep” (follower) or monkey (i.e. monkey see, monkey do) mentality. I think this is quite insulting really. If your faith is strong enough, a novel shouldn’t be able to change the way you feel towards your faith. If it does, then you should be questioning the strength of your faith, not the novel.

I read the Narnia series when I was 7-8. I certainly didn’t relate most (if any) of it to Christianity. I just enjoyed them for what they were (and still are!) – a great read. Now it all seems rather obvious – Aslan and the stone table = Jesus and the Cross etc, but I don’t think most kids that age actually read the books and make the connection between them and religion.

For Jeff and anyone else who is reading the HDM series – wait until you read about what Pullman says about angels! ;)

Kelly, Narnia was written outside the current recommended reading sequence. "Magician's Nephew" was a prequel. The "end" in my mind was Aslan's end, and there the allegory was prominent.

It was the offline statements by Pullman that tweaked my attention in the whole affair, and it's interesting to note all of the other cases where an author thought he was making a statement, and the reading public took something completely different away from it. If His Dark Materials is unkind to some parts of organized religion, it's just as unkind to organized science. I learn that some Angels might be bad, and that some Witches might be good. Some people were offended by Lewis' depiction of a messiah as a big lion.

If there's really an exploration of religion in the works, I don't see a consistent attack on anything that's 100% familiar to my religion. Few Christians today long for a return of the Inquisition. Are armored bears supposed to represent Crusaders? My take is that the author wrote a coming-of-age fantasy story that involves exploring "the nature of the soul." It's been done before, but his treatment is new and clever. That could be relevant to all religions and non-religions. The books have more of a science fiction look-and-feel than most fantasy series.

I agree in part, but I don't think anyones faith should be questioned as weak because they choose not to read or see certain things.  Because I don't view porn, does that mean it's because my commitment to my husband is weak and I couldn't handle it?  No, It just means that I don't want that in my life.  If Pullman hadn't specifically admitted what the underlaying purpose of his books were, I'm sure I would read them and take my own meaning from them.  Since he admitted his intention, I really can't look at the books any other way now.  There are plenty of things in everyones life that they choose not to do, not to view, or not to read.  But when someone admits that they choose not to because of their faith, it's more often viewed as close mindedness instead of simply a personal choice.

I can see how some people may boycott a book or movie because it goes against their religious beliefs. Fair enough. Its only when people start slagging off the book/movie to others that I get annoyed. People should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they read or watch.

What I am trying to say Kelly, is that people should be able to make their own decisions, but not foist these decisions onto others.

Sorry if I offended you... it wasn't intentional! Its something I have debated many times, and something I feel very strongly about.

It's all in my first post.  ;)

LOL... we is still friends then ;D

Glad to hear that we can have some healthy debate on here!

Just as an update I have just read the chapter The Lost boy, wow that was powerful when I got to the last paragraph in the chapter I didnt want to read it but did eventually wasnt as bad as I was expecting but so well written.
I think people will interpret different aspects in their own way and agree my I will never listen to something or read a book which will change my faith, my opinion is these books are extremely engaging and should be read I cant wait to finish the three books to see waht happens and then I think I will base my own opinions on the strength of the message.
Great discussion though guys.  ;D

Word, girlfriend!  ;D

I think the Big Story says that there are/were a lot of bad Angels. One that comes to mind is Lucifer. Of course, I suppose he ended up where he is for not being so angelic, according to the Big Story.

When the author says his stories are "about killing God", does that mean the author wants to "kill God" or to point out that there may others with this agenda?
I wonder if anyone has asked the author this question. The answer given by the author might allow more pointed debate.

I liked the plot and characters.

The author is an athiest activist.  I can check to see which groups he is a member of if anyone wants me to.

I've read far enough that I have to be careful about spoilers for people who might still read ahead.

Regardless of what the author says he intended, there aren't any "heavy" themes along the "Killing God" line until a revelation in the last chapter of Book 2 and as one of the (very many) subthreads in Book 3. Potential spoiler below that puts it in a bit of context, for those who have read or those who don't plan to.

But in summary, I think this theme (in condensed form) was explored almost as completely, if less cleverly, in "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier."

I don't think there's subtle or dangerous writing that rub the core of a kid's developing religious belief, but more a case of using the structure of human organized religion as the background for a tale.

NOW A FEW SPOILERS

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The "God" that may be attacked is not the Creator, he's a Fallen Angel who takes on the mantle of Yahweh and influences humankind to worship him by manipulating human thought and society.

Therefore, the Pentateuch and large portions of the Old Testament become fairy tales. This is not much different from the dogma of many early Christians, and there are plenty of practicing Christians, Jews, and Muslims who view OT stories as more allegorical than factual.

So the story is more like, "What if Lucifer created a whole religion around him, and it didn't always work the way he wanted it to, because people who figured it out opposed him."

If you accept the premise, it's not very friendly to some of the Old Testament themes and leads to the question of "Whatever happened to the Creator?" or "How could he have allowed mankind to submit to Original Sin, and let it govern human behavior for so long?"

These aren't new themes inside orthodox JudeoChristian thought. In fact, the whole discussion could be turned into a strong pro-Christian argument. The author's universe is very much different from our own, but the "villains" in the theology are exactly the villains that the proponents of Christianity and Islam seek to overcome. The "heroes" seem to be largely secular but have motives that are taught in every Sunday School class.

I'm up to Chapter 28 of Book 3, and I haven't yet seen anything yet that would be threatening to a Church-based study group, covering mid-teens and older. I don't think that kids today are likely to read a fiction book and think that it's a precise description of fact, whether it's Harry Potter or Transformers.

The author might think that People of Faith will question things, but his issues are the same things that POF have been discussing for centuries, and (one could argue) should always be discussing. If you want to worry about writings that might be "dangerous", I can immediately think of several other books that have been endorsed as dogma by fairly large groups of the population and are now considered to be the basis for legitimate religions or sects. You could look at those as a modern-day warning that a charismatic Fallen Angel or human might still hijack a religion for personal importance, power, or gain.

Alright, listen up.  As I clearly stated in my very first post, if someone want's to read the books they have every right to.  I mearly posted the information for PARENTS to make up thier own minds about what they want thier KIDS to see or read.  If everyone wants to continue debating, I'm cool with that, but that wasn't the intention of the thread.  My mind will not be changed on the decision I have made for my own children.  If those who have read the books want to continue this thread as a book discussion I think that's a great idea.  I'll bow out now.  ;)

And Star Trek V totally sucked.  :rofl:

Kelly, I hope you didn't think I was trying to persuade you of anything! (I know lots of kids who I might worry about, and I was thinking about how to deal with those who get involved, either with permission or with a lack of parental control.)

There's a lot of things I don't patronize because of the people who are involved, regardless of what else I might think of the book or media product. Your original message disturbed me because this series has won all of those childrens' literature awards, and you begin to wonder whether parents should be warned to ignore all of the ads that say "this is an award-winning book that's great for kids!"

I concluded that this series isn't worse than a lot of other things that (most) kids are exposed to these days. But a fantasy story with a bunch of adorable animals and with pre-teen heroes isn't where you expect to find adult philosophical themes. I can see them producing a cute little movie that will make kids want to find the books, like the first Harry Potter film did. And that could cause problems. WalMart already has a big display up where they're hawking the trade paperback of the whole series.

I'm sort of hoping that the movie is a dud, or else the arguments about the books are going to be *huge*. Parents and friends need to be forewarned.

Just keep in mind that the director will be editing out most of the controversial religious aspects. I expect that this will be a very watered down version of the books that will appeal to a wider audience base.

Yes, it will be.

I just finished the first book and started on the second book last night. I'm hooked.  The storytelling thus far is brilliant!  I believe the books do have an anti-authority theme to them, but it didn't seem to me to be 'anti-God' as much as anti-establishment or anti-political.

Just one girl's opinion.

I still haven't read the books, but I wonder if this would even be a controversial issue had the author not made the definitive statements that he did. He is entitled to his beliefs, certainly, but I have always thought of children's books as just that--children's books...a wonderful escape for kids ages 1-99. I love reading all sorts of literature, from fiction to non-fiction and beyond, but the beauty of fiction/fantasy stories is the ability to simply leave the sometimes harsh reality behind and for an hour or more every evening travel to a world of pure fun. That's what has made novels like Harry Potter so special; that's what makes certain times of year, like now, so magical...the belief that extraordinary things can and will happen, even if only within the pages of a book.

Hi folks. I am freshly back from one of the few unashamedly Christian (Catholic) countries left in the world. I was sitting in an awe inspiring Cathedral this morning. And believe it or not, it was in a town with a population of something approaching 5,000 (tiny to have a Cathedral) - there were no less than 150 people in there this morning at 10.00 - there wasn't even a service on. It was so busy with people praying that I didn't disturb them and walk around and take a look, just sat at the back appreciating from afar.

Coincidentally this very week I've been reading Northern Lights for the first time (even this title annoys me - why not Aurora Borealis ? ;) :rofl:) - I also confess that I hid the book in my bag at the hotel, I didn't want to offend anyone ... it's just a respect thing after all.

The Catholic church in particular does have a lot of power and of course that's been mal-handled and mis-used by various individuals over the years. It's inevitable with any large community with power after all. Modern literature does seem to enjoy a good go at the Catholic Church at the moment (usually this appears to be what they mean when they talk about "the Church").

Where am I going with these ramblings (it's almost like I've been up since before dawn broke in a  day week of working 14 hour days :P)? Well, just that I'm glad that everyone has enough respect on here to talk to each other considerately even when we have vastly opposing views, and to call into question some of the statements in the article. I don't know much of the background, so it could all be perfectly true, but equally some of it could be painfully misquoted or quoted out of context.

I am Christian, my religion means a lot to me, but at the same time I'm curious what the fuss is about. I like to know what I'm facing. The snoopers article is certainly extremely poorly put together - for example: "an article written about him said 'this is the most dangerous author in Britain'" - what article? Who? Where? Who here would write this without fully referencing - the article is written as heresay? How reliable is this article?

Roz, I was also encouraged by the quality of the discussion, and was ready to start deleting posts if I had managed to offend anybody.

I saw the film yesterday with several people who were partly preparing for its discussion in their Bible Study groups. ;) And I never would have read the books before the movie if there hadn't been the controversy going on. As I'm sitting here composing this post on a Sunday morning, I hear on the radio in the background a discussion on The Lutheran Hour of whether the movie is supposed to be advertising for atheism. They're interviewing the guy who wrote the book The Soul of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

There's nothing much in *this* film that should be very controversial, outside of what the author might have stated outside of the pages of the stories. (Of course, he's the type of guy who's unlikely to shut up.) There is an obvious parallel to the Catholic Church in the days of the Inquisition, but there weren't mass demonstrations over Humberto Eco's The Name of the Rose or the Sean Connery movie. There is one little hint that might tie into the more controversial aspects of the sequels, and indeed there's quite a few things later that are "anti" some of the canon of Old Testament religion. My Bible Study friends are of the opinion that public discussion of this sort reinvigorates public interest in the source material, and brings people back to Church. However, Southern Baptist members of our social group didn't want to have anything to do with the movie, just because of what they had heard from the author.

My point about "anti Old Testament" is a key one. In all of the books, I don't see anything significantly negative about the philosophies and events that brought about Christianity. I could imagine stronger reactions from Judaism or Islam. I can't go into much detail without spoiling things for people who may want to read the books. but one could read the trilogy as an explanation of how humanity has embraced false gods and needs to re-focus on the Creator. It might be a stretch from what the author intended, but a lot of what he criticizes fits nicely into the teachings of prominent Evangelical Christians.

The books aren't anything that should be offered to young children without caution, for several reasons, not just the religious ones. They aren't written as the type of escapist literature Bitsy was talking about. And I thought it odd to find the DVDs for Pan's Labyrinth selling at Best Buy with a free ticket to Compass inside. (The cost of the DVD was less than the cost of the movie ticket, so why not pick up a few?) That's another film that looks to be a kid's fantasy on the surface, but it's actually rated "R" (U.S. ratings) for violence and language. This is marketed to youngsters?!?

I think changing the Northern Lights title for the USA market into The Golden Compass was a decent idea. The change has parallel construction with the titles of the other two books, and is a lot less puzzling than the change to The Sorcerer's Stone.  :P

I got the $25 platinum series of Pan's Labyrinth for $7.99!  Woot!  ;D  Definately not for kids.  I agree that it's weird that the free ticket was in there because Labyrinth was never marketed to kids in the first place. 

Pan's Labyrinth is indeed not a children's movie - too disturbing, but brilliant!

The thing I like most about this series of books so far(I'm halfway through the second book) is that I think it's overwhelming message is to encourage independent thought.

I too am encouraged by the respect people have shown on this thread. This is certainly not the case with other forums I've been on.

What's wonderful about our society is there is room for differing opinions and life philosophies, etc. And then here we all are talking about cards and things! :D

I saw this last night and I thought it was an excellent movie. But I went into it not knowing anything about the books. I did know about the fuss and walked out of it not knowing what everyone was getting worked up over.

From what people have posted about the book I can say every anti-religion theme from the book has been taken out. I may have just been me but I didn't pick up on anything that pointed to any religion.