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This topic is for those who have finished HBP in its entirety or for those who just want to know what happened!

Well, I finished it about an hour and a half ago and can't stop thinking about it. What an intense book. It was very interesting, and better and OOTP.
General reactions:
I can't believe she killed Dumbledore!!! I understand the reasoning that it means Harry has no one left to stand behind, but still. NOOOOOOO.
And Snape is evil. NOOOOOOO. To think that Dumbledore trusted him, after everything Harry said. Why oh why?? And he was the half blood prince (who didn't play quite the large part I was expecting). Hmm.
All the backstory to Lord Voldemort was quite fascinating.
So Harry and Ginny. Cute. And it's so going to be Hermione and Ron--maybe once everything is over.
And of course, who is RAB?  ??? ???

Mike, with all due respect ... you didn't have to look here if you'd not finished reading the book - the title of this thread does say 'for once you've finished reading' after all! :-\

I finished reading my copy about half an hour ago and won't comment on the contents till I know more ppl have read their copies ... I have to agree with Alyssa though ... very intense and an excellent book, I enjoyed reading it enormously! ;)

I finished my book a while ago, but I had to have some sleep cause I had been reading all day!!

All I can say is....I knew it was coming but I still cried my eyes out for the last three chapters of the book  :'( I think it wasnt just DD, I think it was the fact that Snape was bad that upset me too cause I always hoped that he wouldnt be  :o

I do love the pairing up of the couples, kinda the way I thought it would be, but with the added extra of Tonks n Lupin!

I was upset though that they got that horcrux for nothing that it wasnt the one they wanted, but it may already be destroyed...hmm

Im happy with the way it ended too, upset thought that harry wont go back to hogwarts, but I love his determination, he now knows what he has to do, find the remaining 4 horcruxes and kill vold for the last one, and he will get it done im sure.....and look out if he ever runs into snape  >:(

I think it was a really great book, on par with OOTP which was great as well... but the last part of the book was just supurb (upsetting but still supurb at the same time!!)

Im shocked, kinda upset, i get well into the book, Snape killing Albus, its pisses me off silly, everyone shudda seen he wasn't loyal from the first book. And the next book is going to be totally unique, maybe no more hogwarts, it'll be about harry, ron and hermione on their quest to defeat Voldermort and the teachers and Aurors helping harry along the way. I'm happy about the  background of voldermort being looked into i thought that was class. Well upset about Dumbledore's death i just can't see how harry is going to survive without his protection. You see the way he tried to fight Snape, he was over powered everytime, it will take alot of learning to defeat any death eater now, and without hogwarts maybe, it will have to be lupin or someone teaching him how to fight...ahh i want the next book

The strange thing is though, even though harrry is not fantastic at his spellwork...I think that he is very powerful, maybe more powerful than DD was...just for the pure fact that harry knew all along that snape was bad...and harry knew all along that draco was up to something...and harry knew all along that snape was on side with draco...and harry knew that something was going to happen at hogwarts that night, thats why he gave that stuff to the DA members...

Looking at all this he seems more powerful, even than DD cause he could feel what was happening/going to happen...and DD wouldnt listen to him and really I think underestimated harry in that respect.

Ok so i finished the book at 11pm last night and wow very impressive JKR-she's such a smart cookie.
But do you really think Snape is bad.
OkOk so he killed Dumbledore thats not very good  :(.
But i still have faith in dumbledore's feeling about Snape-it was always rock solid that he trusted Snape.

SO why would he have killed Dumbledore in a positive way? (Please don't jump on me for this its been a long 24hours and i'm not being as eloquent as i could.) A few ideas:
*So Harry would have no one to stand behind any more and have to find his inner strength (which he did at the end. His resolve was very strong).
*He can be more of a help dead than alive as the prophecy says Harry alone must kill He Who Must Not be Named-It can't be Dumledore
This is in a kind of Obi Wan helping Luke kind of way-The mentor helps the student from beyond the grave.

Him pleading with Severus at the end does not mean he was saying"Don't kill me" but could be "PLease Severus do what we discussed"
Anyone have any similar thoughts.
I was ok with Dumbledore dying until Hagrid started crying and then  :'( :'( :'( :'( I'm such a sucker for other people crying!
Inger

I think that is quite true too..how DD and Snape were arguing and hagrid saw them, I thought it was odd...I think that maybe DD was telling snape that he had to kill DD...

Well I guess there are two ways it could go...Snape is bad...or snape is not bad and was just acting on DDs orders...

I am hoping the latter as I have always hoped that snape was good...and honestly I think that he could have killed harry, and that there was a reason that DD stopped harry from being able to save him, honestly harry would have been quite capable of jinxing draco and then DD would be free to grab his wand...but DD did not let harry do it

so im hoping that snape is still good and that DD had this planned all along...but we will have to wait and see  :(

I really don't want to believe Snape is really bad...But Dumbledore's 'iron-clawed' (or whatever the phrase was) reason for trusting Snape was that Snape repented?? Even though as Harry rightly points out Snape hated his father?? I guess I was hoping Dumbledore had a better reason than that (though I suppose him not killing Harry helps). Like I thought Snape does seem to be looking out for himself first and foremost...doesn't want to go to Azkaban. I'm still hoping he'll redeem himself--like Gollum.
Btw, when Hermione and Ron insisted that they are following Harry, did anyone else think of ROTK (the movie specifically but also the book) and Legolas and Gimli telling Aragorn they will follow him on the paths of the dead, no matter what?? There was also something else that made me think of LOTR (after I had finished).

And Mike, sorry if I ruined it. I assumed general discussion would be full of spoilers and people would know that.
But I do believe the info "This topic is for those who have finished HBP in its entirety or for those who just want to know what happened!" was posted before I posted, even if the title was changed afterwards.

That's the way it looked to me. Really, wouldn't it have been rather out of character for Dumbly to have been begging for his life? And there wasn't really enough time for the Headmaster to have been convinced that Snape was on the Dark Lord's side just from the action in the tower, was there?

The story Albus gave to Harry about how Severus heard the first part of the prophecy and then went to tell HWMNBN argues against it, but his explanation was awfully short and lame, which made me think that it wasn't part of the plan for Harry to believe Snape was a good guy. And Jo did manage to have Trelawney tell us that Dumbledore's brother was right there with Snape when he was listening at the keyhole.  My theory: there's no way that Harry (or Neville) will be able to get close enough to Voldemort for the final battle unless Snape is established incontrovertibly as an insider.

And to bring Pettigrew along to save Harry at a critical moment, repaying his debt. And maybe the silver hand will be used against Fenric, now that he's been built into a major character, and not to kill Lupin like I dreaded.

I'll be *danged* if I can come up with previously introduced candidates for the Gryffindor-or-Ravenclaw artifact. My best guess is that it will have something to do with Percy. It had to have been chosen after Riddle lost access to Hogwarts, I think.

I'm not going to spoil "R.A.B." yet since somebody will let it out of the bag, and I think many people who have been watching can figure it out.

JKR fooled me because I speculated that Tonks's strange behavior was due to an Imperius curse.

All in all, this is not a book that will appeal mostly to the kiddees, will it? There weren't too many "movie moments" until after page 500.  ;)

Well I have finished. In general I liked the book but I didn't like the ending. The thought of Harry not going back to school. So even if he does servive he can't be an Auror because he has dropped his newts.

I like your idea of Snape, but it really doesn't look good. I hope you guys are right. And no you are right Dumbledore pleeding for his life not likely. I knew he had to die so it came as no shock. Harry couldn't do it with his protection. The ending has kinda put me off kilter  :-\

Although one thing that has made me very happy indeed

 :-* :-* TONKS AND LUPIN :-* :-* I hoped and prayed  :o= OH YES OH YES OH YES ;D

OMG :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

This was so good, but so depressing :'( I can't say I wasn't expecting Dumbledore to die, but not this book, definitely the last.

Prior to reading it, I had a sneaking suspicion that Snape was the HBP... why the whole use of the Potions text on the Adult edition? ...maybe indicating the HBP had something to do with Potions. Prince... royalty - who would see themselves as royalty... purebloods. It was the 'half-blood' bit that threw me out... so Snape is a half blood like Harry and Voldemort as well? Interesting...
During the reading of the book... I was trying to confirm my theory - it was pretty easy when the HBP's book was a POTIONS text,  it was mentioned earlier (by Sirius?) that Snape knew all manner of Dark curses and stuff like that in school. I was certain that it was him when Harry used the slashing curse on Malfoy and Snape healed him straight away... obviously familiar with the curse and of course, Harry's outstanding performance in Potions.

I loved the Voldemort backstory Brilliant piece of imagination re. the Horcruxes... I'll need to brainstorm R.A.B for a bit as I finished to beeok at 1am and am still trying to digest it all now - I should be in bed but I needed to get this out before my brain burst.

I agree with Inger and Jeff... I think that the whole Snape turning bad plot is too obvious - doesn't JK like her twists? I thought exactly the same when Snape killed Dumbledore... I thought it might have been part of an elaborate plot and it might have been someone using Polyjuice potion (maybe Aberforth?) to imitate Dumbledore, but after his portrait appeared in his office, I resigned myself to the inevitable :'( :'( :'(

A few random thoughts - this is just the thing that I could imagine Dumbledore doing - sacrificing himself for 'the greater good'. Interesting about Draco - d'you reckon that he may be having second thoughts about becoming a DE? How did DD hurt his hand (we never will find out). Who will he leave his belongings to (Fawkes??) - more importantly, will he leave something to Harry that will help himin his fight?

And who is going to be Harry's 'guardian' now? McGonagall? Lupin? He's nowhere near experienced nor able anough to just go out to look for Voldemort and defeat him by himself. I also think that Harry is more powerful than his everyday performance lets on... after all, did you all note what Snape said to Harry: 'I underestimated you Potter' and then he made a comment about how he could use powerful Dark magic. And why was Harry able to perform the slashing curse without practising it before? And if he has difficulty performing such things as turning vineager into wine, why this piece of magic (which I presume is much more complex) with such ease? And the Crucio curse that he performed on Bellatrix at the Ministry in OoTP - he could obviously do it - it DID work I assume for a few seconds, but Bellatrix said that he had to have that hatred, the desire to hurt someone for it to work. Yet 'Moody' said in GoF that even if the whole class pointed their wands at him and said the curse he'd not even get a nosebleed as it needed a powerful bit of Dark magic for it to work fully. I think that Harry may have inherited some of this ability from Voldemort. So maybe if he set his mind to it he could do it, he could do it properly - in that case, could he perform the ultimate Dark magic Avada Kedavra??.

Didn't DD mangle his hand with the ring? Which he said Snape sorted so why didn't Snape kill him then or let him die? I think it was important Harry saw DD being killed thats why his immoblised him and he knew the spell would break with his death.

I was sure JK herself had told us Snape was a Pureblood did I imgaine it  ???

I know that the ring did it, but what happened is my question. I mean, Harry destroyed Riddle's diary without a scratch from it (the diary itself, I mean) so I wonder what enchantments were on the ring.

Dumbledore must have known that he was going to die... why would he have immobilised Harry and not allowed him to fight, but to watch? How depressing :'(

Another - Malfoy crying on Myrtle's shoulder? I can't believe Voldemort wanted him to kill Dumbledore - I thought Narcissa was referring to Harry at the start. I feel almost sorry for him :-\

I have to agree with Greenpaw and others about Snape.  I'm not ready to give up on him yet.  Dumbledore said "Severus, please"  as if he was asking Snape to kill him.  He never said "Severus, no".  And I don't think we know the true reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape.  There must be something more because it would be pretty lame if what he told Harry was the whole story.  But I really thought that Snape would die at the end by stopping Mayfoy and breaking the promise.  What a shocker to me!  Overall, I'm kind of numb about the whole ending.  I think I need a little time to digest it all!  I'm not too suprised about Harry/Ginny or Ron/Hermione getting together.  What I was suprised about was Fleur sticking with Bill.  I thought for sure that she would take one look at him and run for the door  She's not as superficial as I thought and the whole scene was very touching.

Maybe he meant 'Severus, please don't do it? But I'm like you, I am hoping that he will redeem himself somewhat in Book 7. Maybe there are more clues in the Pensieve as to why DD trusts Snape? I just don't think Harry could ever forgive him regardless though. Do you think Harry is going to let on to anyone about what he was doing with DD, after all, he says that he won't, but DD never actually said he couldn't tell anyone if he died, did he? Surely he wouldn't expect Ron and Hermione alone could help Harry. Do you reckon that he should at least tell McGonagall? I think that she would be the best person tho tell, she was fiercely loyal to DD and she is now also Headmistress. She would be very disapproving that he won't be returning to Hogwarts, I think he needs as much training as possible... so maybe she could be there in a mentor like role?

I was also very touched that Fleur is going to stick with Bill and I got quite teary when Mrs Weasley finally accepted her as part of the family at the end :)

Well..................!!!

That has to be about the best book EVER written!  I read in in 12 hours - not on purpose but because I just couldn't put it down.  I was starving by the time I finished.

I cried and cried at the end.

Never - NEVER - has their been a book with such a cliff-hanger ending and a WHOLE TWO YEARS to wait before the next one!  Oh God - I'll never survive!

I put my mind to the R.A.B. as well and the only candidate I could come up with was Regulus Black.  Any good, do you think?

I agree with the person who says we have yet to learn about Snape's real commitments - mostly because he took care of Lupin in his transformation phases and substituted the Veritaserum for Harry at the behest of the Order.  I think we still have more to learn.  Could Draco be Snape's son and not Lucius's?  Do you think he had 'a thing' for Narcissa? Much is made of Snape's greasy black hair but Narcissa is blonde so he could have taken after her. A very wild speculation but veerrrryy interesting.

It was not Dumbledore's style to plead with Snape - this is an absolute fact.  He has said all the way through there are much worse things than death.  It could be argued that when you are faced with the actual thing its quite another matter but I don't think Dumbledore was such a weak character.  He would have faced his own death as calmly as he faced every other disaster in his life.

Now I have dashed through it I shall sit down this afternoon and give it my full attention.  I read OOTP like this and didn't think much of it.  With nothing else to read, I started reading it again six months later.  Since, I have re-read it six time and the last six chapters numerous times on top of that (I kept finding new clues in it).  But I think this one is every better on one reading so just think how I'll feel six readings down the line!

Yes I really think he should have told McG she was always right behind DD and his strongest supporter.

That was truley amazing and I am in the 'Snape is a good guy' camp.

I am so pleased some of you had thoughts on RAB.  I was drawing a complete blank.

One bit troubling me is the ring.  Dumbeldore is able to sense magic.  Therefore he would have known the ring had the horacrux.  But likewise wouldn't he have known it was cursed?  Even if he didn't know he would surely have suspected there were protective spells on it.  Why then did he wear it at all.  When he visted Horace Slughorn he was wearing it then.  Bit strange for him to keep it as a 'trophy' after all he said about Voldemort.

My thoery why Dumbeldore told Harry to tell no one of the  horacruxes is that he knew one of the inner circle was a Death Eater, just not which one (and no not Snape  ;D ).

My guess is that wearing the ring didn't damaged Dumbledore's hand.  It might have been the effect of destroying the piece of soul inside.  What worries me is that Dumbledore never told Harry how to destroy the Horcruxes.

I agree with Sharon -- some trusted member of the Order is a Death Eater or spying for Voldemort.  Harry was right not to tell McGonagall.  I don't think she's the traitor, but she might in some way try to interfere or prevent Harry from doing what he has to do.

Yes you are right; Harry has no idea how to destroy the  horacruxes.  If indeed it was that which destroyed Dumbledores hand, how on earth will Harry destroy 4 more  ???

Riddle's diary - just before Harry destroyed it, JK said that Harry 'instinctively knew what he had to do' before he plunged the basilisk fang into it - maybe it will be the sme with the rest of the Horcruxes...

Also - I know that DD said not to rely on the prophecy, but maybe Voldemort and Harry are destined to destroy each other and if only one can destroy the other, perhaps it is only Harry that can destroy the Horcruxes without injuring himself in the progress. A wild guess, but we have 2 years to formulate more weird ideas ;)

Maybe the fact that Harry maybe one might have something to do with it.

I think I need a bit more convincing that Harry is a  horacrux.  I wonder how you can tell something is one?  Even Dumbeldore was having problems.

And I am also confused (not unusual for me) about why DD got so cross at Harry about the prophecy.  DD had been the one to make it 'important'.  By giving his memory to the Ministry of Magic he was the one to put the prophecy on record.  If he had said nothing more about it, Trewlaney remembered nothing, it would have just remained an incomplete mystery.

Which also brings me onto why Voldemort never went after Trewlaney?  If Snape knew she was the one who gave the prophecy, surely he would have told Voldemort who, at some time in the many years that followed, could have gained acces to her.  Certainly much more easily than the record in the Hall of Prophecies.  And deep down she would probably have remembered something (Snape or Voldemort would have been able to drag something out of her).

Anyway back to the prophecy.  Why had DD changed his mind and say the prophecy was not that important?  What had he found out?

And what does he know about Snape that we don't?  The fact he was sorry about passing on info about the Potters is not enough.  There has to be more and I bet it is all tied up with his mother.

Oh this is so good to get this off my chest  ;D.  The only other HP fan in the family (my Dad) has only just started the OotP.  And I booked the week off work so I could read the book.  A week! I should have just booked today to get some sleep  ::)

Lol sharon I did double studies last week so I could have this week to read it but I read it all at the weekend anyway.

Harry as a horacrux;

* He speaks Parceltonge passed on from LV

* He has massive powers possibly passed on from LV (encluding dark magic)

* He could see into LVs head and was affected by it

* He knows when he's near

* Brother wands

* Harrys mother had just died (a death)
Thats why I think he is  :-\ Although I don't think he indented to do it  :-\


"As to your question...from CBBC: Sarah Wallace for the Irish Independent - How did you think of the bond between Harry and Lord Voldemort?
JK Rowling: That is another one of those questions that goes right to the heart of the series. I can't answer. It touches way too closely on book 7. Sorry. Good question."

And I'll raise the theory stakes. Maybe you don't need a Death Eater in the Inner Circle, if Kreacher holds Regulus Black's horacrux.

Further, are we 100% sure that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince? You believe what he says, when he speaks for his own unknown purposes? I thought somebody said the writings were at least 50 years old, which might have made Hermione right all along. (Against that, it would be a bit extreme for JKR in the misdirection department, but I'm bothered by that too-ancient comment.)

The book was snapes mothers thats why the date.

Harry as a horacrux!
 :o
Wow well done whomever thought than one up.
Have no idea if its tru but Bliney if it is!
What a twist that would be.
I need a little emoticon for falling backwards off my chair here...
I'll have to go away and think about that.

Sorry it came from me. I don't mind if he is and long as he can get rid of it without deing himself  :-\

On the Snape thing, do you think it is telling that he didn't snear and tell Dumbledore how wrong had had been about him and laugh at him before killing him? Although he did have hate and loathing on his face, but was that because he had to do it?

Well, I finished the book last night and am a bit shocked-not surprising. 
I had the thought of RAB as Black's brother too.  Guess we'll find out.
I'm concerned that Lord V. will use some people who died as Inferi or whatever.  How does he get a hold of them?  What if he used Dumbledore or Sirius against Harry?   kinda unnerving.

Kinda weird that in all the books up to this point Harry wouldn't really tell any "adult' anything and in this book it seems he was telling anyone who would listen his thoughts.

So, if Harry doesn't go back to school, will he be a registered wizard after 17 or no because he didn't complete his training?

Very interesting what people think about Harry being a Horacrux.  I think the last book is going to be horrible in the sense that everything will come tumbling down for the good of all in the end.

I have a horacrux question.

If Voldemort is mortally injured in battle does the piece of soul in his body at that time die so that he has to go and get another piece?

If this is the case couldn't Harry just attack Voldemort, wait for the next horacrux to take up residence and repeat as necessary?  I think I was sort of thinking along the lines of a cats nine lives.

Or is the piece of soul in the body the main one and the other bits just sort of anchors to this world?  One of the many things I thought of last night as I was drifting off to sleep.  I really need to keep a pen and paper handy  ;)  Any thoughts much appreciated  ;D

I don't think that Harry will leave Hogwarts. Here's some reasons why I think not:
1. It's a resource for him.
2. Dumbledore's WILL has not been revealed. Don't you think he has left a tool in the form of a "Advanced Potions" ala HPB by Snape. but titled "Advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts" annotated by AB. And don't forget there are secrets that Dumbledore knows about Hogwarts that I am sure he will pass onto Harry. Dumbledore knows that Harry is going to need his future help. Plus Dumbledore's picture is in the headmaster's office. I believe Dumbledore will leave a letter to McGonagall as well.
3. The Room of Requirements is full of things Harry will need, for example Snapes Potions book. Snape was bad, but not stupid.
4. He has his on D.A. that he trusts that can help him. We haven't heard the last of Neville and Luna, et al.

I agree. I hope he will go back too. He is still young and although powerful whenever we have seen him fight talented wizards like Snape he has failed badly.

However, who can teach him what he needs to know? Has McG got some hidden Occlumency talents we haven't heard about or who can we think of to help? McG is very talented but we don't really know her talents beyond transfiguration and although she was an excellent head of house and looked after Harry a bit in the early books we seem to have lost that connection between them a bit of late.

I really would love AD to have left him a DADA book, but it would be a bit too much to hope for :) but I am SURE he has been left some clues, it's now up to Hermione, Lupin and the Weasleys to help him back to Hogwarts, they are all he has left.

Did you all notice that next year Hogwart's will again need a new Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor?
I wonder if she wil bring Professor Moody back?
I'll bet we see at least a two part story. Happily, I think there is too much to tell in just one book.
He has to get quaified, find all the horacruxes and face LV.

I was really bothered by the way McGonagall grilled Harry in her office after Dumbledore died.  It seemed to me that she was really pushing for info, even though Harry told her that Dumbledore didn't want him to discuss the matter.

You do have a point John - any bigger than the order of the phoenix and they'll be sending off for bible thickness paper and print ::)

The DADA post seems to have been a one year only post since Lord Voldermort last applied :(

Fantastic book - and it's great the adults get so much out of it.  The last 3 chapters were very sad, even I could feel the tears welling up and I'm not the most emotional person in the world.  Says something for JKR's talent as a writer that she can evoke that level of interest.  You really do care about the characters.

I agree with other posters that Harry is a Horcrux.  I was thinking maybe his scar is where Voldemort's soul is trapped.  It does all fit, what with the parseltongue, and reading Voldemort's thoughts.  I don't remember Slughorn telling Riddle that a living entity COULDN'T be a Horcrux.

Hard to believe Harry won't go back next year.  Mind you he may have no choice, there may not be a Hogwart's!  Don't know where he's going to learn what he needs to fight Snape and Voldemort though.

Maybe Dumbledore isn't dead after all.  The body Hagrid brought to the funeral was only wrapped in a robe and Hagrid moved DD's body from the foot of the Astronomy Tower as well so whose to say Hagrid didn't help DD to escape and recover his strength?  OK, so he's asleep in the picture in his study but that could just be a diversion.  He appeared in the chocolate frog cards and then disappeared so why not the picture in his office?

Maybe Sirius isn't dead either.  It's a while since I read OOTP but didn't he just fall into some netherworld?  Maybe Harry learns how to contact him or even bring him back.  Maybe Harry has to exchange the piece of Voldemort's soul inside of him for something of greater value.  Maybe Voldemort INTENDED to place a piece of his soul into Harry.  Maybe that's why he needs to kill him, to retrieve it.

Well Dumbledore reckon his pet snake had one, so why not Harry both are living things. I do think it would have been an accident though after all he wanted to kill Harry not leave a peice of himself. But He probably wanted Harry's death to create an other one but it all went a bit wrong.

I have such mixed feelings about book six  :-\

I hate the fact that Harry's feelings for Ginny came out of left field instead of developing like the others, however I ws very happy to find out that Lupin and Tonks were getting together (I love those two characters). I also have my fingers crossed that Snape is still on a secret mission for Dumbledore and killing him was part of the plan  :o= (I like Snape,I just think he has a big stick up his butt half the time but I feel for him). Oh! Yeah! I also like the fact they didn't say mate half as much as they did in book five  ::)

Well I am off to play Harry Potter Scene It, I just wanted to post my thoughts on the book and I may have to read it again to see if my feelings have changed from mixed to absolutely loved it.

Morningangel-Iola-thanks for bringing up the Horacrux idea (sorry i didn't acknowledge you before) what a fantastic concept and it  seems to make sense.
Perhaps thats why Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself (Chamber of Secrets/Goblet of Fire) -if anyone else were to do it perhaps the piece of soul would enter them or just be detroyed like the one from the ring that Dumbledore destroyed.

In regards to Harry's feelings for Ginny do you think they came out of left-field?
Maybe its just the movies impression on me but i certainly seem to have had the idea that there was something there previously.
Subtle but still there in a can't see the forest for the trees kind of way.

Snape's killing of Dumbledore was way too quick at the end for it to be a personal vendetta.
Its almost as if he had to just do it so his resolve would not weaken.
I think if it had have been personal he would have gloated a bit.
JKR likes her quick deaths doesn't she-Cedric, Sirius and now Dumbledore.
One minute they are there then...
Cheers
Inger

Yes I really think the lack of gloating means something.

Well, Snape was kind of busy at the time. But moreso, I think his saying "can even put a stopper in death" might have been a clue. The premiere DADA specialists know defenses against the Unforgivable Curses.

I don't think either Sirius or Regulus lived, or Kreacher wouldn't have obeyed Harry.

I wish to the heavens above that you are right, but I fear that Dumbledore is gone. He needed to go to make the final confrontation more dangerous for Harry. It's also about Harry becoming more independant too - whilst Dumbledore was a wonderfully powerful wizard he never explained to Harry how to sense magic etc (like AD did in the cave) and I think in order for Harry to be our perfect Wizarding hero he needs to struggle to get to grips with Occlumency and become a wizard like AD by the end of the next book (almost).

Was anyone else peeved that the nassssty Draco had got to grips with Occlumency before Harry? BAH

I think that refers to a poison rather than an antidote...


That WAS Harry's fault though ;)

With Dumbledore dead and Snape appearing to have defected, who's going to teach Occlumency to Harry?  My guess is Lupin.  He's definitely a Legilimens, at any rate.

What makes you say Lupins a Legilimens?

Draco was coerced into acting. In defense of Draco, if Lucius was your Dad you'd probably turn out to be a brain-washed twit as well.
People arn't born bigots, they learn it.
But in defense of kids, some of them are smart enough or innocent enough to see through and overcome bad influences.
Notice that when Dumbledore talked to Draco he faltered.
About Narcissa and Snape, I definitely sensed something there. And notice that Snape did not hesitate to make the Unbreakable Vow.
This convinced Bellatrix, without a doubt, that Snape was/is not a traitor. Plus all of the eye witnesses of the inner circle, Death Eaters, who saw
Snape curse Dumbledore. No doubt Snape is now firmly ensconced in Voldemort's mind that Snape is "True Black" (Sorry, "True Blue" is too positive.)
Snape also being an accomplished Occlumens can prevent LV from penetrating his mind. He is now perfectly set up to spy even deeper into LV's plans.
This sort of gives you the idea that the entire Dumbledore death was pre-arranged. Dumbledore could have disapperated at the moment
Snape cursed him and substitued a false body in his place.
His "death" would put Voldemort into a false idea that the one Wizard he was afraid of was dead.
Of course, for obvious reasons, Harry will have to be kept in the "dark" about that to be convincing.
Harry is too touchy-feely emotionally that he couldn't fake his feelings. Remember how he intensely hated Sirius until he knew the truth.
If Voldemort were to read Harry's mind in a moment of weakness he'd find out that Dumbldore is still alive. SO, Harry had to witness and be totally
convinced that Dumbledore was dead, and that the hatred for Snape was, if possible, even more rabid.

That's a really good point John!!! :o I just hope that Dumbledore had enough energy to Disapparate - but remember you can't disapparate on Hogwarts grounds - or did Dumbledore 'undo' that temporarily when he did the magic that allowed him and Harry to fly into the school grounds?

He undid a lot which also worries me about the future saftey of Hoggies if it opens again.

I'm sure that when Dumbledore set up the security he made them with included exceptions for himself only.
Sort of like being the SECRET KEPPER for locations, maybe Dumbledore is the "SECURITY KEEPER" for hogwarts.
The only reason he was mumbling a spell was to allow the brooms into Hogwarts. This may have been because Harry was with him and he needed to allow Harry's broom in with him.

I don't think Dumbledore set up the security - Hogwarts is described as being protected by an ancient magic which probably the 4 founders set up. But I guess as with all things, there is always a way around it!

didn't dumbledore disapparate before  when he admitted that he had organised Dumbledores Army ??????

so that leads me to believe that he could have escaped if he wanted too

Yeah... but he was so weak that he could barely stand up straight - would he have been able to perform magic?

You may be right. Then again, Dumbledore increased the security 100 fold during the summer. There may be a threshold of security set up by the four founders that cannot be reduced. Maybe the headmasters have permissions that go with the office of headmaster that allow them extrordinary and unique previledges.

This "weakness" inhances the poor Dumbledore scene that may have been eloborately staged for Harry to enable the deception of LV.
Amazing isn't it, how Harry was able to Apparate both he and Dumbledore with such precision back to the front of the Hog's Head?
A weak Dumbledore or a cunning Dumbledore?

Or was it because Harry was very focused at the time?

You CAN dissaperate on Hogwarts grounds.  Dobby and Kreatcher do it all the time.  I think it's been beaten into everyones head that it's impossible, so no one tries.

I think JK has left a lot of clues that Lupin is a Legilimens.  In POA, Harry thought that Lupin could read his mind.  It came up during the boggart/dementor lessons and other times, as well.  In OOTP, Harry thought the same thing when the Order arrived to take him from the Dursleys' house:

Lupin held out his hand and shook Harry's.  "How are you?" he asked, looking at Harry closely.

A little later:

"A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you," said Lupin, as thought he had read Harry's mind.

There's also the scene when Sirius and Molly fight over how much info should be given to Harry:

Ron, Hermione, Fred, and George's heads turned from Sirius to Mrs. Weasley as though following a tennis rally...Lupin's eyes were fixed on Sirius.

Harry had the same feeling about Snape, who can do both Legilimency and Occlumency, and we learned in OOTP that eye contact is important to Legilimency.  To me, it all adds up to Remus having one or both abilities.

Oh yes actually he might well be, would come in handy being as the other two that could do it are no longer available.

How else would Kreatcher get from Harrys house to Hogwarts?  And JKR even says in HPB that Kreatcher "DISSAPERATED" (inside Hogwarts) after Harry gave him his assignment or after Kreatcher gave Harry the report.  I can't recall which scene at the moment, but I'll look it up.

She ahs told us houselves can do this because they have different powers from Wizards and if you look at it it makes thier job and awful lot easier.

It's in OOTP chapter 27:

Fawkes circled the office and swooped low over him.  Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand, and grasped the phoenix's long golden tail.  There was a flash of fire and the pair of them had gone.

They disappeared, but is it technically disapparation?  House-elves can appear and disappear inside the Hogwarts grounds, too, but it may not be apparation.  There must be another form of transportation that we aren't privy to yet.

Yes that was with Fawkes help wasn't it, not true dissaperation.

Something Dawn just said in another topic made me think.  What if Hogwarts Castle is the horacrux?  I don't know if that would be possible but what a good place to hide one.  Your soul would literally be safe as houses.  And what a cool bit for book 7 - Harry having to blow up Hogwarts to kill Voldemort.

Oh I bet Voldemort would love Hogwarts as one. I still personally think the chamber of secrets is a great place to hide stuff. Hand on a minute it is the chamber of secretS not just one maybe more ;)

I have been having a bit of a flick through the book again (can't quite face a propper second read yet).  Two things struck me;

Why had Dumbledore suddenly been spured into action?  I mean I know Voldemort had more or less declared open war on the magical community.  But DD knew this was coming for years.  Why had he only just started looking for or trying to confim the existance of the Horacuxes?  I got the impression he had kept some of the memories he showed Harry for years - why hadn't he acted on them?  My personal opinion is that he knew he was going to die and soon.

The other thing that I thought was so cool was that the Ministry of Magic can't really stop under-age magic.  It is more by luck than judgement when they find someone breaking the law.  Poor Harry was unlucky in as much as no other Wizards lived nearby so he stuck out like a sore thumb.  This definately mopped up some of the loose ends from other books when Ron would say the twins had done magic on him and not been caught.  Very clever  ;D

I agree.  i think DD lnew too and told Snape to do it.  If Snape and Malfoy failed, both would die, and DD would rather himself die than a student.  I think he was preparing Harry for what comes next.

I know Snape and DD had an argument near the forest that i think Harry overheard, where Snape was saying he didn't want to do it anymore or something, right?  Anyone remember what chapter that was?

I don't remember what chapter but I think Hargid was the one who overheard it.

Oops, that is what I meant.  Sorry.  I really did know that.

Its ok I do that all the time ;)