The Yak Shack Forum

I am in shock. I just turned the TV on and there were reports from London that there were several blasts in the underground train network and on busses. They are calling it a terrorist act!!!  :o  :o

This is scary....are all our UK shack members ok??

I was just about to post - I can't seem to get any definitive news on it... everything is in disarray and confusion, unsurprisingly. Apparently it was at least 6 confirmed blasts on trains and buses according to our news. And the BBC newsite is down at the moment so I can't check up on the news there.

I hope you are all OK - please let us know what's happening :-*

BBC site down? Blimey! Anwyay it's back up now!

No idea what's going on and my best friend (Londoner) is on the phone/engaged so I can't check he's ok - maybe his mother is calling him :P ;)

Oh Lord - is this something to undermine London for the Olympics? Wouldn't yesterday have been a better choice? Surely it's not the IRA, so who's left? Osamas lot?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm

Some Londoners are telling their stories here - this forum is not always safe for children guys as these are twenty-somethings out for a laugh

http://www.serpentineroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10206&start=80

Lord how depressing is this? The skating community of London are ticking themselves off one by one as safe :

http://www.serpentineroad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10213&highlight=

:(

This is hideous! This hasn't happened in YEARS

Also the G8 summit is on there at the moment... :-\

Have they moved down? I hadn't heard that I thought they were still in Gleneagles  :-\

20 confirmed dead so far...  :-\

OK one friend missing who takes the 9.15 bus from Kings Cross each day. Phone dead!

However I'm not panicking yet because they have cut out all mobile phone providers to the centre of the city because they think there's a chance that mobiles may be the bomb trigger!!!

*Keep breathing*

And from the Skating forum in London - a quote!


Stiff upper lip folks!

Other snippets

There seems to be confusion everywhere!! Apparently it was at least 6 blasts, 3 were believed to be on buses and 3 on the train network!

I am honestly in shock sitting here watching this and the first thing I thought of was my friends here on the Yak Shack...

Dont worry Roz, mobiles are all cut out so you probably just cant reach your friend for the moment...I have two friends that work with us over there at the moment but I cant find out how they are until I get into work tomorrow, dont have their phone numbers at home  :-\

Do you know what part of the city their offices/work is based?

All the phone networks are down...

According to sky news, its most likely due to G8; too well co-ordinated to be due to the olympics, that was only announced yesterday.

Hope you can get in touch with your friend(s) soon.

Keep safe.

It's fairly sickening actually - London was a target at it's easiest during G8 because the best part of our security forces would be in Scotland.

But I really do wonder whether it's about Abul Hamza - is his trial in the US or here? I can't remember - there was so much of a fuss about it

Here apparently

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4652693.stm

From the sound of it, your PM thinks its most likely to due with G8, and hes prob right....

Yeah - I didn't see it but someone's given me the gist of it


"Blair is leaving G8 in a few hours to go down to London, and then returning to G8 in the evening, but the G8 meetings will continue in his absence.

it's particularly barbaric that this has happened on a day when people are meeting to try to help the problems in africa and the environment

reasonably apparent that this has been timed to coincide with the opening of the G8

it is important that those engaged in terrorism realise that our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction to innocent people in a desire to bring extremism to the world

They will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear in this country and in other civilised nations around the world."

Blah Blah Blah

This is tragic... I can just see the repurcussions now - hate crimes and backlashes against the Muslim community - right now no-one knows for sure what the cause was, but I bet my Legolas FOTR that you'll have people out there formulating their own ideas and trying to take matters in their own hands for revenge :-[

I think and hope that this will be rare. London is multicultural enough now for most people to  have Muslim friends and to know better than this... although it only takes one idiot doesn't it?

apparently al-quaeda have already claimed responsibility

Reuters server has been caned! Which surprises me!

I see it was well placed (financial district) to attempt to devalue the £... seems to be working too

Oh for sure... I just hope they realise what London needs right now is unification and support, not people attacking each other and shouting unfounded accusations. Even if it WERE extremist Muslim parties involved, you can't blame those Muslims living in London - as you said Roz, many Londeners have Muslim friends and many Muslims would have non-Muslim friends - neither would wish death and destruction upon the other!!! >:()


Oh for F***'s sake - what the hell are they trying to achieve here??? >:()

the bbc new sites has gone down by the looks; everyone is after information. the news now says 7 attacks, but only 1 bus not 3 like was thought...

It's still working fine for me, I'm greedily streaming video I'll admit it but I have no TV here. I'm just hearing an account by a guy who has just been freed from a tube which was stuck under Kings Cross

I think all is ok, they are in Illford...which I have never heard of so I think that it isnt in the city (I hope)...Is that right? I have been crazily on the phone and all I found out is that they are in Illford..

Ilford is about 24 miles from the centre of London - it's really separate from London entirely so breath easily!

If anyone IS stuck in London there's free transport on the Clippers!

Well - trust the Londoners to make the best of it ;) let's go see the THAMES :P

The congestion charge is also waived for today (they don't want to be seen as profiteering from this - I think there were a lot of 9-11 accusations of profiteering)

Here is a link to a map

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=543333&y=186479&z=3&sv=ilford&st=3&tl=Ilford+Station,+Greater+London+[Station]&searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf


Just a little bit further out in Romford we have a Shack member :)

This is just really bad....

I guess there are a few ideas about who is responsible and the causes but at the moment I dont think we would no for sure..not yet anyway since there arent even firm reports on how many explosions there were....

 >:() This is just crazy, I honestly dont understand why this happens and why people/groups feel that they need to have this death and destruction to get noticed or get back at countries etc... oh bugger I just dont understand  >:()

they probably have some reason for their attack, but the problem is that they hurt/kill innocent people who are just trying to get to work  >:()

Oh great...phew...I dont know London very well so that is why I was a bit worried at first. THANKS HEAPS ROZ...I will call some people from work and just let them know.  

I have been following the news as it is being reported here in the United States and it looks like you have very many casualties I am sorry to say.  I watched Prime Misister Tony Blair's remarks live just a few minutes ago and you could tell he was shaken by the sound of his voice but he spoke from the heart and without any type of aid or notes.  Whatever you think of him personally he is the leader of your country and all of England needs to unite behind this man in your hour of need.  I wish to express my deep sorrow over the loss and injury of so many innocent lives but I know the resolve of the British people will overcome this cowardly act.  We all are in a war against Islamic extremists and as many have said on this thread already innocent Muslims should not be judged and treated harshly as that would only lower ourselves to their level.  

We all need to be viligant in our everyday lives as events like this can happen anywhere anytime.  God bless you all and I hope your family and friends are safe.

I have to agree with Blair.... the attacks were way too coordinated to have been arranged in time to respond to the Olympics bid... if its anything, it's got to be either G8 or the trial of Abul Hazma...

Do the people responsible really think that by terrorising a country that they are going to back down on their anti-terrorist stance? I don't think so! What does go through the minds of these idiots and extremists that plan these attacks? Not many brain cells, obviously >:() Though I guess being brainwashed with extremist bull**** for most of your life doesn't leave much room for actual intelligence to be used >:()

Don't worry when you are so far away you are totally excused for not having a mental map of London all sorted out in your mind. I was relieved when you said Ilford :D

well guys ive gotta head off to bed, have an all-day conference tomorrow, so I wont be able to check in here, but I hope all our uk members are ok...

Kate

Well at work we just call it the London office so I honestly had a mental picture in my mind that it was in the heart of the city! I actually think that one of them lives closer to the city as he is often going out and he has seen the sights already (and they havent been there long) but hopefully he was safely at work...thanks heaps for your help Roz and I hope you can get hold of your friends soon  :-\

We have feared this since 9-11 and Madrid! So it's not come as an amazing shock, but it has come as a disgusting act!

The only reason I shyed away from thinking it was AQ is because the attacks really are much smaller scale (but hardly less horrific) than 9-11. Somehow the small bombs seem amateurish but the timing is clever and deadly - bomb the tube, wait for people to get on to the buses and then bomb a bus!

It's horrific and my thoughts are with any families who have lost loved ones but as Jo rightly says - as though we are going to change our stance on the basis of a handfull of lost lives.

Just the pure illogicality of their reasoning astounds me - would the death of your fellow countrymen/women really make you think - oh, those people that killed them - we should listen to what they say and do as they ask because...?

Exactly! >:()

Killing citizens of a country that you love and cherish isn't going to make the survivors any more sympathetic to the cause of those responsible... if anything it will make most people more angry and determined to not bow down to the demands of these extremists. So I really don't see what the hell the perptrators were trying to accomplish!

I totally agree and this is what I dont understand, how can they think this way  >:()

Wow - things have got desperate - the French just called us "the heart of Europe"

Which is markedly different from what they were saying yesterday ;)

Now perhaps Tony Blair will take into consideration that he cannot keep letting Immigrants into the country willy-nilly!  >:()
I am glad that I wasn't there! It is so sad, why London, so much history.  :o
Thank goodness the casualities were not fatal, although there were enough!  :'(

Chris

I don't think its the immigrants that were behind this...

To be fair we have a system in place now whereby pretty much only refugees can get in!

Yes others get in but that's usually by more foul means than fair

(clinging on to the underside of lorries etc.)

And to be fair most of the people who come to the UK are from ex-colonial countries so they have an attachment here and are perhaps less likely to bomb it once they call it home ;)

OK back to the topic in hand

"A previously unknown group calling itself "Secret Organisation al Qaeda in Europe" said it carried out the attacks as revenge for British "military massacres" in Iraq and Afghanistan."

(moment of silliness - how long did it take them to come up with that name??)

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188265,00.html

I hope they don't intend to try to catch up - see why here:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Well all i can say is

I prey for the people and there families that have been effected by this.
and hope that they find a way to stop this

first chance I have had a break since this am.
I hope everyone is ok :(

That was just my opinion, not that I have anything against immigrants. I would expect that most of the people that live in UK, now have paers, and are a lot happier than there older countries.

Anyways,
i do hope that Tony has information on how this is going to stopped, again in the future.
Lets hope that this is a first and a last!!

Chris

This - ironically - is the price of freedom. How can it be stopped in a so called free country.



Oh don't - he'll only harp on about ID cards again

Oh that's silly - you reckon ID cards would have stopped 9/11? Or Madrid? Or Bali?

To be honest - what can we do, really?

Yeah those ruddy ID cards ... like they'll stop this happening again! :-\

My heart and prayers go out to all those affected - I worry most about the children -- events like this can be especially traumatic for them - even hearing or seeing the images on television can be dowright scary :(

I will admit that I never let Alexander watch any coverage of 9/11  - whether it was the right decision or not, he wasn't (isn't still at 7) capable of comprehending that...

I just saw the news.  I'm so sorry for all of you Brits.  I just hope that the police have some kind of lead on the masterminds behind it all.  I'm going to turn on the news right now to get more details. The Spanish reaction to thier terririst attack was dissapointing, and empowering to the terrorists, but I know that the British unite and fight back when times like these arrive and Im sure this will be no different.  I'm sure that you guys can count on the help of the US in anyway possible.  Keep us all informed on your family and friends and of course our fellow Yak Shackers.  I really hope everyone is ok.

I wouldn't say we were 'used to it' but a good deal of older Londoners are. Apparently people just evacuated the system and didn't panic as they were directed off and away from the tubes - even though they had just heard the bombs go off. I have a feeling you could have heard a pin drop as people evacuated (apart from the footsteps I bet people were silent)

The fear has always been that biological weapons would be used on the tube etc, in theory standard explosives have limited range - the tube carries 3 million people a day if they poisoned the air then we could be in serious trouble

i too am sorry about this happening.  It really disgusts me.

Roz, have you heard from your friend?

Also, just to make sure i am getting this right in my head, I know this happened at several locations, but Kings Cross, the one your friend uses, this is the same station that is used in the HP films when they go through the wall to get to Platform 9 3/4 right?  So we can pretty much imagine what it looks like over there right now, since i can see the image of the station in my mind.

This is just terrible.  Last I heard, 40 were confirmed dead.  And to think they only confirmed 2 when I woke up this morning.

My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to all of you over there.

This is terrible. I do pray for the familys of this horrible tragidy and hope there is no suffering for anyone.

My heartfelt prayers are with all the British people. I know you have a long history of strong resolve and courage and with time will bring to justice the preparators of these cowardly atrocities.
                                                            With Best Regards and Love, dave

No, there has been no news.

Apparently they helicoptered in 4 teams of 4 doctors who had been trained and were ready to give "intensive care" level of care on the scene!!

That's marvellous!

I just was watching the news at the top of the hour and the reports state 40 dead, 390 injured with 50 of those people in critical condition.  The reporter said that this attack on London is the worst since World War II for dead and injured.  Erevine (Dave) said it all.

Many of you are asking why this attack targeted innocent people and do the terrorists think they are going to change people's minds by doing this.  They are not trying to change people's attitudes.  You all are thinking like logical rational people.  The terrorists know exactly what they are doing.  They do not look at life and events as we do.  The attack was aimed at creating horror for the sake of horror.  The more death and destruction the better especially with women and children.  Government and Military facilities are on guard and attacks like these would not succeed so the terrorists go after the helpless.  Civilian targets are too many to list here but the rail and subway are easy to attack.  All people everywhere must become more aware of their surroundings, who they sit next to, and what they see people doing - ie - leaving backpacks, packages, or bags unattended in public transportation systems.  Security will have to be increased across the board.  I hope and pray this is the end of the attacks.  We here in the United States have gone into an increased security mode for our transportation systems since the attack on London this morning.  I pray no other country gets attacked and that the authorities apprehend those responsible. 

I don't think the bomb on the bus was deliberate.  The bus was actually on diversion and I have a horrible feeling the 'carrier' was just late getting onto the tube.

Yes it has been a horrible day.  There was no one at work that wasn't trying to trace someone, myself included.  When the mobiles went down and the main phone became over-loaded, well you can imagine.

I think everyone has said what we think of these people.  I also just hope that there is not a backlash against communities that are perceived to be responsible, however unlike Roz I am not so sure this will be the case.

I think the government fail to look after it's people, but yet they continue to allow unidentified foreingers in. One way to put some sort of end to it would be for the UK should to suspend all people coming in and do it like australia. If you can't proove an income before applying to move then you aint coming in... also if you can't make £25,000 in your first finacial year then you're sent back home. Any one in this country who can't : 1. Proove Birth in the UK (have no identidy). 2. can't get a job within the first month of coming into this country or 3. can't proove savings to keep themselves while looking for a job. Should simply be stuck on a boat and sent back to where they came from. Thats not a backlash against communities that are percieved to be responsible, it's putting your foot down and thinking about your own people by crushing fear and animosity.

How do you know it was diverted Sharon?

It is really terrible, we know it was likely but hoped and prayed it wouldn't happened but it did :(

The Arch Bishop of Canterbury said his Muslim cologues have been devisted by this. It puts back realations. Working so hard together.

My thoughts go out to those affected and thier families.

But London is resliliant it survived the Blitz so we will survive again its just a shame we have to :(

I've been sitting here all day quietly counting my blessings, as my older sister lives and works in London ... and thankfully is away on holiday abroad all this week.
I can't begin to tell you how relieved I was that she was miles away from what's happened today ... I don't want to lose another family member so soon after Dad's passing. :-\

*sighs* I've not watched any of the news reports (too depressing) but have heard/read some of it throughout the day ... *huggles* Sharon ... you too Dawn as I know you're in that neck of the woods. :-*
To any of our London Lurkers ... we're thinking of ya! ;)

What a miserable end to the week ... :'(

Thanks Jules, its such a shame that this had to happen now after London being so happy to get the Olympics.

This is far to close to home. Lets hope they find who did this, or that they perished (unintentionally) at the hand of their own handy work. :(

This is just terrible news. its obvious that these Terrorists are trying to make us live in fear and in the future instead of us remembering the day London got to host the Olympics it will take a backseat to the day London was bombed. Hope all our UK YakShackers are well and good.

I hope the muslim community in the UK will speak out against this terrorist act and work with everyone to find out who was responsible.  I recall in the time after the world trade center bombings that there were some in the muslim community in the US who spoke out, but there was virtual silence from the major religious leaders here.  To help avoid a backlash they really need to show some true outrage as BRITISH muslims.  Not just muslims who happen to live in the UK.

I must say it was surprising though that American reports had the death tole a lot higher than we are being told even now. I pray that it won't go up much more now :(

This is just horrible and sickening.
The reports I've read this morning say its in response to the G8 summit which would make the most sense. Death toll at 37 and injuries of more than 700. Other countries around the world are on high alert. What a world we live in.
I hope all our London members are safe. My thoughts are with you all.

To the people on the on the forum from London, my thoughts and prayers are with you.

We've had the Bishop of Stepney (East London just down the road from the bomb in from Aldgate) standing shoulder to shoulder with an official from the East London Mosque talking out asking for unity and prayer. So at least they are talking - the Archbishop of Canterbury (head bar the Queen of the Anglican Church) also requesting the same thing. I didn't see any Roman Catholic messages, but I hope when they do speak it will be a similar message.


From what I hear that figure still stands but we must bear in mind there are many critically ill people so the toll may rise. They have talked a lot about amputations - it's just devastating

its going to be way over 50 dead as they havn't brought any bodies out from kings cross underground  :(

Wow, so much has happened since i was online last night! Roz, have you heard from your friend yet?

Again, hoping all our uk memebers are safe and sound...

From the latest reports here in Oz, there are approx seven aussies injured, incl 1 unconcious, but they assume that number will rise....

I saw abc coverage the BBC news 24 last night and it was funny to see it from the American view.

I think there will be a lot of Nationalities hit as there were a lot of tourists.

I think I heard that there are about 100,000 aussies in london at any one time  :o

Isn't that more than in Austraillia :p

he he, no  ;D

This bus passes near my brothers road (he lives at Angel).  He uses the service and when he saw where it had happened he realised it was not on the usual route.  I am not sure if it was a diversion already in place or one that happend due the underground incidents.

I am shocked how many people I know who were so close to the events.  A work colleague, who has just moved to Spain, found out today that her son was on the Edgeware Road train.  He has lost both legs and an eye and she is desperately trying to get home.

I do totally agree with what some people on here have been saying about Britains imigration policies but I have now seen on the TV they think it was people born and bred here that did this.  How could they do this.  I know everyone is asking this but I still keep repeating it hoping for an answer.


I don't think anyone could have put this better.

I'm just devastated to hear this - one friend of mine was in the next carriage to the Edgeware Road train. My deepest sympathies go out to your friend. My great uncle came back from the war missing both his legs, to add on top of that losing an eye, it's just so awful. Everyone tends to focus on the deaths, not the devastating effects on "survivors"

Yes so peoples lives have been changed forever :( Even those lucky enough just to have cuts and bruses will have terrible mental problems. I feel really sorry for your friend, its like trenches in the WWI but its not these poeple where only trying to get to work >:(

First of all, it is just shocking to see the aftermath of yesterdays events.  Hearing some of the eyewitness accounts brings a lump to the throat and a dreadful feeling in the pit of your stomach.  You just cannot imagine how awful it must have been especially with no warning.  One minute your happily sitting on a bus, nodding your head to a tune on the ipod, the next... well, there's not much else to say really  :'(

I know this is going to sound racist (and I know I'm going to get loads of stick from you guys for saying it) but if these animals hate Britain, it's people and it's way of life so much then why the hell don't they just go home?  Inflict misery and suffering on themselves instead of others.  Because that's all they do in their own country anyway - suicide bombings are a daily occurence.  They do it in the west because it's less common and therefore more shocking and hurtful.  And if they did go home, they'd continue to do it because it's a way of life for them.  There is nothing holy or divinely inspired in killing yourself and many others in the process.  It's just sick.  What about the freedom that all our soldiers, UK & US fought for in Iraq?  The freedom a great many of them died for?  OK it wasn't our freedom they were fighting for but it makes you wonder why we bothered to get involved in the first place.  Of course we all know the answer to that, the greater glory of Messrs Blair & Bush.  The only problem is that overthrowing Saddam and trying to stamp out terrorism in general has brought misery to the rest of us.  You try to help someone and all they do is throw it back in your face.  I have to wonder why Muslims come to any western country in the first place.  You see them walking around in Jilbab's or the full head to toe black garb with a slit to peer out of (which is sinister anyway) and you can't help thinking that the idea of coming to the west was to get away from that kind of oppression.  To them however, it's a religion, one to be practiced wherever they are.

Maybe we just aren't meant to live together in harmony.  Maybe that's why we have seas and continents separating us, different religions to believe in, different ways of life to live by.  Trying to understand them all in one big melting pot is perhaps the mistake we are making...

And I agree with other shackers who've commented on Britains immigration policy.  It needs an overhaul.  The only problem with the word "restrictions" is the racist overtone it implies.  But would non muslims be welcome with open arms in muslim countries?  Racism goes both ways I'm afraid.

Ok, I tried to resist but I have to post.  Maybe this is a bad analogy and I don't want to offend any LOTR fans out there, but this is how I see it.  Every time I watch ROTK I think about terrorism today.  It does no good to run from it and you can't pretend it isnt there.  The only option is to stand, fight and stamp out evil where you find it, even if it's not in your own backyard.  Otherwise evil takes over.  Maybe not all at once, and maybe you don't see it happening in leaps and bounds, but evil eventually chips away at everything that is good in the world and destroys it.  So we fight.  Even though it seems like a loosing battle, fighting back is the only option.  Does fighting in Iraq bring freedom to me and you?  No, but it brings some freedom to some people in the middle east who want it.  And maybe it signals the beginning of the end of the horrible repression over there.  To quote US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice- "Freedom is contageous."  It will spread.  Will things get worse before they get better?  Probably.  But they WILL get better.  If we give up or turn away to protect ourselves all is lost.  The people blowing up innocents are the ones who don't want thier countrymen to be free.  But there are plenty of people in the middle east who do want freedom.  I do agree with you though that "The melting pot" is a joke.  Lots of immagrints just want to move thier country over with them instead of assimilating into the new one.  As far as the muslim religion goes, i'm no expert.  What I do know is that there are about 100 muslim words for God, and none of them mean love.  Still though I can't blame all muslims.  I just wish more would stand up with us against evil.

And fighting back is what they want isn't it?  Full scale war, one religion pitted against another, each believing that there God is greater or more good?  We'd head back to the Dark Ages.  Religion is such a contentious subject and history shows it.

As for bringing freedom to those who want it, what use is it if they live their lives in fear of those who don't?  I don't think terrorists want freedom, they just want confrontation and to indoctrinate others into believing their way of life is better.

On the other hand, when I hear muslim extremists saying they will turn Britain into an Islamic state, it makes me so mad.  What gives them the right to think they can change a country they came to into something they want it to be?  As I said, racism goes both ways.

We are, as a nation, far too politically correct and it's all Blairs fault.  It's why we have gangs of yobs running around with no respect or manners, who sue you for defending your own property if they get hurt during a burglary or act of vandalism.  And it's why religious extremists think they can get away with yesterdays tragic events because people are too scared to stand up for fear of being branded a racist.

I wasn't saying we shouldn't fight but maybe if people just got on with their own lives in their own countries without interference from others, without others trying to "understand" them, perhaps we wouldn't have to.  Unfortunately, the likes of Blair and Bush cannot help but interfere.  After all, are they not saying that middle eastern countries should lead their lives according to western rules?

Of course the terrorists don't want freedom.  But not every muslim is a terrorist.  You're right, indoctrination and the distruction of Isreal and Christian nations is what they want.  But you say what use is freedom if you live in fear?  Aren't they living in fear as it is?  Is'nt it better to be free with the hope of peace in your lifetime or for your children than being oppressed with no hope?


Unfortunately, it's a bit too late to ignore the problem.  The fight has been taken to us.  I have no interest in "understanding" the terrorists.  I don't want to reform them or convert them.  I want them dead.  Plain and simple.  9/11 was brought on by people who wanted to start a war and they got one.  Now it's our duty to win it.  The terrorists aren't interested in just "living thier own lives."  They want to control the lives of everyone else.  If they were content to only terrorize the people in their own countries, then they wouldn't have attacked the world trade center, Spanish railways, British buses, etc.

No.  They are saying that if you harbor terrorists, fund terrorists, or in any way are sympathetic to terrorist acts, you will be held accountable.  They are saying that ALL people deserve freedom.  Not just white Euopeans and Westerners.  If you want to bash Blair, that's your right as a voter.  I respect his backbone in the war against terrorism and I like him, but I don't know anything about his domestic policies.  If you want to bash President Bush, you are also free to have your opinion, but just know that as an American he is MY President, and I'm more than a bit offended by it.  With that said, let's both clear the air and declaire a truce.  I think we're more on the same side than we know. Peacepipe, Geek Boy. ;)

Agreed - But the problem is isolating these people - so many people (inc Muslims) do love it here. When Mark was working in a cinema in Stepney Green (Mile End Road, large Muslim population) and 9-11 occurred, more than one commented that they would go and fight for Britain in Afganistan if necessary!

How do you discover those who believe this is home, and those who wish to cause devastation and suffering?

I think we still need a policy to let true refugees in (like the folk from Zimbabwe who need us) and other places, especially those places we have colonised in the past and therefore have some responsibility for.

I still believe that the war was as much about oil interests as letting a people go free - I am not saying that the war was completely unjustified in Iraq, but the reason of WMD was invalid, and it's not the only country in the world that is suffering from hideous oppression, so why Iraq? There are too many other places in the world that they could have chosen (harping back to Zimbabwe again) and I don't see any plans to help in that area. I know that comment is going to make me very unpopular with the Americans on this board, and I know one in particular, but perhaps one of those offended people can explain to me why else it would be Iraq first?

Well, this American agrees with you completely. I have never argued that taking Saddam out of power and installing (or attempting to) democracy in Iraq is not a worthwhile goal. Because it is and the people of Iraq are better off without Saddam. What I object to is the that was not the premise for the war, the supposed weapons of mass destruction were. Iraq was a threat to the USA and action needed to be taken. There has been so much evidence showing that this premise was grossly exagerated and largely fabricated. This was was about oil, and perhaps also a sense of revenge for Bush. As an American, I object to being lied to about why this war was started, a war that has gone on much longer than the administration promised (but that's no real surprise to many of us) and has cost how the lives of how many soldiers, and not just from the US. This war was started under false premises and that is not acceptable to me. Not to mention that Bin Landen, who was responsible for 9/11, is still alive and free. Seems to me the US would have been better off devoting more resources to ensuring the capture of a known threat, instead of a potentially weak threat.
I'll stop my rant and get off my soapbox now though.

I couldn't agree with you more Roz.  I know a lad (soldier) who has been to Iraq and will likely be sent again.  I have known him since he was a tiny baby and I do support him and all the other troops over there.  But I don't believe we should have been there in the first place.

Yes I believe whole heartedly in supporting the USA - I think Britain is more part of America than Europe, which personally suits me fine.  But I don't think either country had justification for invading Iraq at that time.  I still don't understand why they didn't finish the job before.

As for Zimbabwe if Blair had said he was sending in the troops I would have backed him 100%.  But now we don't have any troops to send, they are committed elsewhere.

I can't help but feel if the devastated people in Zimbabwe (or a dozen other countries suffering similar plights) had been sitting on huge oil reserves then we and the USA would have been in there like a shot.

As for the people who planted the bombs in London, they are murders plain and simple.  The religious side has little to do with it, it is a convenient excuse for mass murder.  If they were truly devoted to their faith, they would not pervert the text of their religious books to meet their own ends.

The 'evidence' for WMD was always tenuous at best and I have never understood how a decision to invade Iraq could have been made based on that evidence. However, I will no pretend to know alot about this, so I shall let the politicians and world leaders debate, as that apparently is what we are actually paying them to do, and move on...

I've always believed that the race to capture Bin Ladin was a waste of time. He's one man, and yes, while he apparently masterminded 9/11 and other such atrocities, he alone could not plan everything and carry everything out. Its the followers at the grass roots level, the everyday individual that is being brainwashed to commit such terrible crimes that are responsible for the attacks occurring. It is here that I think effort should be made to stamp out the hate filled terrorist acts and the anti-Western stance, not by removing the leaders and trying to convince the people that what we are doing for them is right. A bottom approach is needed, not a top down one.

I understand America's desire to gain retribution for the tragedy of 9/11. It is both understandable and justified. However, I doubt that going in and removing Saddam Hussein is going to do the job. You take him off, there are 100 others there even more fanatical and anti-American than he was, and using Saddam as a martyr, they are going to mobilise the Iraqi people to hate the invaders even more. I use the term invaders because that is what the US and its allies are seen as by many Iraqis. While the Allied troops may see themselves as a liberation force, many of the Iraqi populace see a foreign military force coming in to their homeland and putting in a puppet government. Sure, they didn't have much say in how their country was run in the first place. But to have a foreign country barge in and do it for you isn't much better. Imagine if that was done to you - some foreign invading force arresting your president/prime minister, killing their supporters and installing a government consisting of your countrymen, but havinig their strings pulled by the invading force. I wouldn't be too impressed, regardless of how my government had treated me. IMO, it is the country that must change itself, not an outside force. How much consensus are you going to get if the decision on how to run your own country is forced on you by some other country, no matter how good their intentions?

I'm not condoning the behaviour of the fanatics... just trying to point out how it looks form their point of view. Maybe by looking at the other side's point of view, we may come up with a way of stopping the current insurgency as well as getting troops out of Iraq and back home where they belong. We are always looking at it from our point of view - 'Why are they hating us? We are there to help them!' - it doesn't make sense to us... so we may well have to look for alternate explanations.

Saddam is just a figurehead. Give them time and another will pop up. You've got thousands of potential leaders out there willing to take over. By this same logic, spending precious time and resources going after Bin Ladin may be better spent elsewhere. You don't seriously think that he comes up with all his ideas and plots by himself, do you? I am willing to bet that there are hundreds working under him or using him as a rallying point that do this. Bush, Blair, Howard. They're all figureheads. Get rid of them and America, the UK and Australia will still be America, the UK and Australia. You won't undermine these countries and the love and patriotism that these people have for their countries just by knocking off their leaders. Same with Al-Qaida, the Iraqi insurgents, etc. Replace patriotism with fanaticism and its exactly the same.

My heart goes out to all those who have died in the war on terror. American, its allies and the Iraqi and Afghan people.

I couldn't agree more - there are 100s more high profile Anti-West folk - in fact voicing anti-west comments is probably enough to get you elected over there.

In almost humorous news, ebay advises anyone dealing with a London postal address to be patient -  :rofl: our postal system is completely back to normal, families and lives are not however, but thanks for the advice ebay  ::)

I was speaking this morning to a guy who was doing a PhD in nuclear physics in London during the war. He told me how different things were - they just wanted to give him the PhD and rush him out to "become more useful" :P He had to discover most things again since the majority of the previous work done in his subject area was classified. But he got it in the end :)

He just commented "you had to be damned unlucky to get hit by a bomb. Just keep moving and keep living your life" and that's when bombs were falling from the sky most evenings, this event has been appalling but London really has seen worse. I suppose it's just that we regard ourselves as living in more "civilised" society these days  :-[

(NB, I must mention we were as savage to the Germans as they were to us... ;) there you go Tower. My Gran had a German friend (after the war of course) and they discussed just how devastated we had left her city :()

My name was mentioned. Well, don't be surprised, if i don't take part in those more serious discussions. It's only because my English is too bad for this, really, too many complicated words and so on. It would take me too much time to understand everything completely and i wouldn't be able to find the best words for a reply, to express exactly what i mean. And then it's better not to take part in my opinion. But of course you can be sure that i don't have any differing opinion and i'm totally sad that this happened. And i'm afraid it wasn't the last act of terrorism we will witness. :'(  :'(  :'(

Sure Roz, there are a LOT of other countries that have oppressive regimes.  Loads of them in Africa.  But should we be policeman to the world?  It always seems like America is the first to be asked to help and the first to be slammed for "not doing enough".  The middle east is where the terrorism is coming from.  Not Zimbabwe.  There were no weapons of mass distruction, I agree.  But EVERY intellegence source including the British said that there were.  George Bush and Tony Blair did'nt pull the WMD threat out of thier butts, they listened to the information they had at hand.  If people want to call it a lie, then they have to think that Buch and Blair made it all up for thier own glory.  That kind of opinion comes more from hating certain political parties (Republican here in the US) than it comes from looking at the facts.  Both Republican AND Democrat politicains looked at the threat and voted to invade Iraq.  But these days people would have you believe that Democrats were against it from the beginning.  Not so.  In any case, sure, it would be great if we could help everyone in the world that needed it, but instead we have to choose to help those who have a direct effect on our own nation.  Yes, I know that Iraq was not the mastermind behind 9/11, but we had substancial evidence that they were a threat and we acted on it.  We did'nt invade Iraq simply because Sadam was killing his own people, but liberation and freedom and the elimination of an oppressive regime was a great byproduct of the invasion.  By the way, Sadam was'nt a "figurehead".  He was a dictator that was in control of the very lives of his people and who killed millions of them.  Let's not downplay his role in his own destruction.  And I doubt that the Iraqi people will replace him with one of the same.  Sure, the pictures we see of Iraq are 3rd world looking, but Iraq has one of the most educated populations in the Middle East.  I think that given the chance they will do fine in future elections.  I'm not offended, Roz.  I'm happy to explain the truth to those who don't agree with me. :rofl:

Is that right? So the people involved in 9-11 and Madrid were Iraqui were they?


No - they pulled it from a PhD thesis that was 12 years old. If in 12-15 years time someone uses my thesis from next year as an indication on how to act upon climate change ignoring all the most recent work and intelligence I would be most concerned.


Zimbabwe has the same education system as the British, it was put in place there by us and the population take the exams laid out for them by the University of Cambridge Local Examinations syndicate, the same as many children here in the UK. It's one of the only places in the world where students coming to England can go straight into our Universities at 18.

It looks like niether one of us will change the others mind, but looks like you misread a lot of my post.  I'm going on information that is correct.  You think you are too.  BTW, I never compared Iraqi intellegence to people in Zimbabwe.  I was comparing the Iraqi education with other middle eastern countries.  I used to have the same opinions as you when I was younger, so I can't say we don't have anything in common. ;)  In any case, it's no use to get all worked up about this stuff on an HP board, and I really don't want to cause friction because I REALLY DO LIKE YOU, Roz.  We are just on opposite political ends it seems. Since everyone already knows where I stand on the issues (far right for those not paying attention) ;), I'm taking a vow not to post anymore on political subjects.  This will be EXTEMELY hard for me.  This started out as a thread to give our sympaties to the British people and it turned into something different. 

I THINK I'm using real info? And so do you? Hmm you're implying I'm deluded and that's just not pleasant, but this is no time for arguing.

P.S. It's not really "just" an HP board, Mark might boot us off for saying that :P 'tis comics, cards of all varieties and chat on everything... and anything really :P

Kelly your sympathies are most appreciated as I'm sure our sympathies for America following 9/11 were most appreciated.  Both incidents were of course on a massively different scale but it hurts just the same.  I guess it's my fault this thread turned into something more "adult" - can you imagine how the FBI, CIA, Interpol, & Scotland Yard monitoring systems must have lit up like Christmas Trees when this turned to a wider view of terrorism in our world!!! :o

That said, I think it's great things have got a little heated - we are adults after all and although there are many younger Shackers who come here for HP and the like, forums are a place for people to air their opinions.

I'm sorry if my comments sounded like "Bush bashing" but it wasn't the intention.  I was just trying to say that the bigger world leaders are more interested in their own place in history rather than focusing on the actual problem to hand.  This is not really the case with Bush because he had his place in history long before 9/11 and London (and not through any misguided interference in issues on the other side of the world) but it's certainly the case with Blair.  He is desperate to be remembered for SOMETHING hence all the "lapdog" jibes when the war with Iraq first kicked off.  And in case you hadn't realised, I don't like Blair OR his Government  ;)

It's interesting that people mention Zimbabwe especially following last weeks Live 8 concerts.  Mugabe is one despot who should have been removed a long long time ago.  I'm amazed no-one has assasinated him.  The people of his country have lived in fear for so long now but like all bad politicians, he manipulates the agenda to keep himself in power.  Bob Geldof wants to make poverty history but targeting the effect is not the answer.  It's the cause he wants to go after and in Zimbabwe's case it's Robert Mugabe.  A lot of people asked why we needed Live 8 if Live Aid was such a success and Geldof commented that people shouldn't tell him "it doesn't work".  But he kind of answered his own question because the problem is still there and it always will be.  I was donating my pocket money to Catholic organisations who sent missionary's into the "third world" to help the poor 28 years ago!!!  It's a terrible truth but a valid one nonetheless.  You think the aid goes to those who need it but the fact is, a lot of it gets hijacked by militant groups who use it for themselves or even try and sell it back to those is was intended for in the first place!  And until the cause is treated, we will never be able to set up sustainable, economic trading conditions with these countries.  The Saddam's and Mugabe's of this world like things just the way they are which is why the resent western interference so much.  That's not to say we shouldn't try and sort out issues such as poverty - it's a fantastic sentiment but difficult to put into practice.

I think the fact that suicide bombings still take place in Iraq even after Saddam is telling to say the least.  They get so used to it they just don't know what to do with themselves when the main issue is erased.  If Western troops pulled out would they stop killing each other?  I doubt it.  They have their freedom, we are trying to help put a proper political agenda in place to build for the future and still they kill.  They are not human beings and if the perpetrators of the London bombings are ever caught (or any terrorist for that matter), I for one would want to see the death penalty brought back.  An eye for an eye as they say.

Iran will be next, you mark my words.  Then Zimbabwe, then Israel...

And Peacepipe to you to Kelly - we're all friends here (I hope)  :)

Oh, and I've just heard on the news that they are evacuating a section of Birmingham city centre following intelligence reports of a threat of some kind...

 Hey, Geek Boy: :)* :)* :)* :), Kelly
Btw, I should be posting my new frame with my wizard candy in the "how to display your cards" thread soon.

The police expect to announce some "significant" arrests later today... lol if you are a bomber you have been warned ;) he hee I presume that they already have them in custody

As of 13.30 UK time, the police had carried out a number of raids in Leed's but have made no arrests yet!

Did you see the BNP have used the picture of the bus for their own means >:()

I suppose they want Britain only for the 'British' people. Not sure where they are going to find them  ::) There must be a bit of foreign in us all. I have 17th Century french myself, then theirs the Vikings and the Romans and the Normans (not in conological order). There has been comings and goings for years  ::) So what is British? Even the Royal family has German and Greek  :-\

Yes, that's disgusting

We've got reports of smoke at 3 underground stations... problems with trains or another attack? I don't know!

Gone to code amber - (London underground) - apparently 3 detonators only - not full explosions - no casualties...??

Heh - so now London is scared of big bangs? Fair dos after 2 weeks ago.

Code Amber? Evacuate the whole network?

We've got full live coverage here on the news ATM - quite scary - we've got conspiracy theories left, right and centre and comparisons to last fortnight :-\

4th incident - on a number 26 bus - (tubes - Oval, Warren St and Shepherd's Bush). Passengers report a funny smell from a backpack on the floor at the back of the bus, no injuries but the windows have been blown out, so it's not nothing!

At the moment, only 3 tube lines are closed so they've evacuated all stations on those 3 lines, all the other lines are still running.

One injury at Warren Street - no info on whether it's a grazed knee or something much more serious.

lol Tony Blair was supposed to visit a school in East London this afternoon - strangely enough I think he's staying at home now :rofl:

Eye witness in one of the tube blasts said it was more like a firework than a bomb, and she saw no injuries, just a nasty burning rubber smell. No smoke.

I'm glad no one was killed this time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705117.stm

(Apparently JKs reading of HBP had planned to be from the first chapter but after events on the 7th she decided that it would be best to chose an other chapter, and those who had read it will know the similarities)

Yeah - apparently it was just a bad mix, so the intention was there for it to be a major event. But this is the first time (Madrid, 9-11, London 7th July) that it wasn't in the rush hour!

A man has just been shot (possibly dead) by police on a tube at Stockwell.

Crumbs!

I bet there are a lot of people who were on *almost* ill fated tube trains yesterday taking up their (perhaps) long forgotten religions again today?

I wonder whether these guys followed a fake "make your oen bomb" list from the internet or whether someone from MI5/6 infiltrated them and supplied/switched working stuff for stuff that wouldn't go off? 

Its so lucky they didn't go off. The police said they (the terrorists) intended to kill, so in that case it is a miricle that no one was hurt (although I heard word that one was hurt but was that a bomber?). While watching Tony Blair give the speak yesterday he looked like he had a lot of releaf on his face.

(I kept my eye on the firplace behind him ;) )

Yes, quite right, did you notice any suspicious portraits? ;)

Not that I could see but I bet it was keeping an eye on things ;)