Credit card chargebacks vs. Paypal claims

[Guest]

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Hey everyone, just wanted to hear about your experiences and advice regarding these options. I have reason to try and get my money back from a recent Ebay purchase. Basically, I bought an item and when I received it, found it to be not authentic (verified by taking it to a boutique). Unfortunately, the boutique would not provide a letter stating this. I have filed a Paypal dispute and have contacted the seller regarding getting my money back. They have offered a 50% refund which I am not too happy with (the 50% is still far more than the copy is worth). I am thinking of either instigating a chargeback/escalating to a Paypal claim. What are your experiences with both of these? According to the Paypal T&Cs, you cannot pursue both, your Paypal dispute/claim will be cancelled if you chase a chargeback as well.

A few points about the transaction:
-Seller had a no refund policy, but I believe the fact that they sent a FAKE to me negates that
-Seller insists that because I didn't ask questions about the item's authenticity, I have no right to ask for a refund (despite them advertising the item as an <Designer brand> item)

Thanks in advance!

[blackcat20]

I had this problem a year or so ago; spoke to ebay via live help and was told I was entitled to a full refund including postage. Fortunately the seller was happy to comply, so I cant offer an opinion of ebay vs credit card, sorry...

[Sharon]

I have had to claim once on Paypal.  It was very straight forward except that there was a programming fault on my account!  I rang Paypal, spoke to a brilliant bloke who sorted it out and I got my money (as it happens the parcel arrived nearly a year later and so I just re-sent the money).  I may have been lucky but there was no aggro at all.

When you talk about chargeback do you mean claiming from your credit card?  I know in the UK the credit card companies are resisting paying out on claims like this.  Their argument is that you you paid Paypal and not the vender for the goods.  As you have no problem with the service Paypal gave, you cannot claim on your card ie it is a third party claim.  I know there is lots going on in the courts to resolve this.

Personally I would claim from Paypal -I think the seller will pay out if you threaten to have them suspended on Ebay/Paypal for selling fakes.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Thank you for your insights John, Kate and Sharon. I went to my bank today and they told me that unless my account was debited incorrectly, there was nothing I could do as I had instigated the payment. I guess I am relying on Paypal now. Unfortunately, I was not as thorough as I usually am with buying and did not question the authenticity of the item. There was less than one day to go on the item and their feedback checked out, which was why I was not as careful. The seller is claiming that I had the responsibility to make sure of what I was buying and also the fact that it is only "my word" that the item is fake to refuse the full refund.

I replied to them that they also had the responsibility as a seller to represent their item correctly and that if they advertised the item as a <Designer brand> item, then the buyer should receive an authentic <Designer brand> item. There was nothing to indicate that it was a replica, copy or otherwise.

What do you think - am I justified in my view? I'm pretty sure that I will have to escalate to a claim.

[kbmum]

Sellers are not allowed to sell counterfeit items and it's the seller's responsibility to make factual statements in their auctions.  The fact that he or she said you didn't ask questions tells me the seller knows full well the item is a fake.

eBay does have protections in place for this situation.  You will get back your money and NOT be required to return the item.  I had a situation last month with a counterfeit DVD.  The seller quickly issued a refund, but I spoke with eBay customer service as well.  I was asked how I knew it was a fake (the more things you can list, the better) and was told that eBay recommends the buyer not return the item, because the seller can repackage it to sell to someone else.

Definitely escalate this to a claim.  If for any reason you don't get back a full refund, then you can go to your credit card company and file a chargeback.  After this is resolved, you might also want to contact the designer, giving the company all of the auction details, the seller's full name and address, and details about the claim.  The designer will look into this.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Thank you Cindy! I have a question though - since the boutique refuses to provide written proof of the non-authenticity of the item, would there be an issue with me claiming it is the case? I can see Ebay/Paypal asking me to prove it, but without physical evidence, how could I?

[kbmum]

Could you try a different boutique or store?  If eBay or PayPal have a customer service number in your country, you should call them.  They can tell you what you need to do and what proof will be required, if any.

You can provide proof on your own.  You'll need to state all of the reasons why it's a fake (wrong image on the tag, poor workmanship, etc.).  Then, take pictures that prove each point.  You should look for online pictures of the authentic item so that PayPal and the seller can make a comparison of how your item differs.  You could also contact the manufacturer and see if they can provide you with information on how tell the difference between an authentic version and a fake one, and use that to back up your claim.

I looked on eBay and found this info:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/authenticity-disclaimers.html

[ferdinand_the_yak]

What do you think - am I justified in my view? I'm pretty sure that I will have to escalate to a claim.

To put it in military terms, Escalate with extreme prejudice!

I know I can always rely on you John 

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've just escalated to a claim. I have also posted photos of the item on another forum dedicated to designer goods. Among other things, there are sub-forums dedicated to knowledgeable members helping to authenticate items. One already has expressed concern over my item. Hopefully this is enough to win my case

[De Orc]

You could also contact the manufacturer and let them know what has happend, dont forget to tell Ebay that you are doing this    The selling of counterfit goods is actualy a criminal offence, and a number of companies do take it very seriously.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

An update for you all:

Paypal has agreed that I should receive a refund for the item. All I have to do is send the item back and I will receive the refund upon the seller getting the item back. HOWEVER (you didn't think it would be THAT easy, did you? ), the seller sent me an email shortly afterwards saying that she "clicked on the wrong option" and is only willing to pay back 50% of my money, BUT will generously let me keep the FAKE item

Unsurprisingly, I was not impressed. With a 50% refund, I'm losing out on about $400US on a horrible FAKE item.

I have sent an email to Paypal asking whether I can just send the item back and receive the full refund. As I noted down in my claim that I wanted a FULL refund, can the seller refuse and only send a partial refund? This does not sound good at all, if that is the case. I'll keep you all posted.

[kbmum]

Are you still in dispute mode or did you escalate to a claim?  I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if the seller clicked the wrong button (yeah, right).  It was clicked to allow a full refund and PayPal will hold them to that.  Just make sure that if you return the item, you get tracking/signature confirmation or the seller can claim that she never received it.

Yes, the seller could send you a partial refund.  You'll then have to take this up again with PayPal.  I know you sent an e-mail, but if PayPal in your country has a phone number, you should call customer service.  I think you'll get a answer more quickly.  The one time I had to do that, the rep put a note in the file about the dispute so that we were ready if the buyer gave me further problems.

I'm really surprised that they're requiring you to return the item.  The general policy for counterfeit items on eBay is that the buyer is not to return the item so it won't be sold to someone else.  Honestly, once this is resolved, you should contact the manufacturer.  They will go after the seller.

[ferdinand_the_yak]

I escalated to a claim. I am definitely sending the item back with tracking/signature confirmation. Yeah, I thought the same with the "wrong button" excuse as well

Something I never understood was how does Paypal "force" a seller to refund? If the seller doesn't have money in their Paypal balance, and refuses to pay Paypal, how can they obtain the money?

[Scifi Cards]

Something I never understood was how does Paypal "force" a seller to refund? If the seller doesn't have money in their Paypal balance, and refuses to pay Paypal, how can they obtain the money?

PayPal requires that everyone have a funding source registered with them.

So, if they go to get the refund and there is no funds, they head straight to the bank account associated with the PayPal account.  If there's nothing they, they can also go to a credit card on file as well.

I've always been a little uncomfortable about the access PayPal has to my finances, but in this day and age you just about have to use PayPal if you sell online.  And I have a business merchant account to take credit cards, they have the same conditions.  They can attach your bank account if there is a chargeback.  So PayPal is not unique in this.


Ed

[ferdinand_the_yak]

Thanks for the information Ed!

I called Paypal today and they said that I am entitled to a full refund, despite what the seller says about only giving me a partial refund. So good news all round

In your face, BAD SELLER!

I never thought I'd say this but - YAY for Paypal

[blackcat20]

Awesome news