LOTR Evolution

[Guest]

[ocdlotr]

Keep going back to the great www.lotrsketchcards.com site...there, take your time, sit back, sip a coffee or tea, or guzzle down a Sapporo or Guinness pint...and slowly...go through all of each artist's pages...I know each of us as 'collectors' of these cards always want the 'high end' pull or great ebay acquisition at an affordable price...

...but...there are some beautiful simple line drawings there...and, some outrageously detailed full color masterpieces...and frankly, I love both species...

When you buy Lotto here in New York, or go to a casino, or buy a $100 3 card tin of baseball cards with the hope of pulling a Babe Ruth Yankee Pinstripe jersey...or if you buy a box or case of EVOLUTION Hobby boxes...you take a chance!  And the chance you take is that...with 19,200+ sketch cards out there, you're going to pull one of the 1,006 sketch card artists...there are 9 of them...that's 9,045 sketches of the 19,200+ Evolution total...and with TWO SKETCH CARDS per box (1:14)...you've got a pretty good chance of getting one of those 1,006 card artists in every box!
Some of those cards by these 1,006'ers are rather detailed and colorful, some have a smattering of ink wash, some a white highlight and some are fast, simple and sketchy...and that's the chance you take! 

If every box had a Jeff Chandler, or a Rich Molinelli, or a Cat Staggs, or a Allison Sohn, or Cynthia Cummens, Jake Myler, Michael Duron, or even a Rafael Kayanan...then, with 2 sketch cards in a box, those Hobby boxes would be up on Ebay right now for $500 A BOX or MORE!!!   

My baseball reference earlier relates this way...Topps also put out great Topps Tribute cards in 2001 and on...and still puts out new products each year similarly...as do other card companies...one autograph or game used jersey or bat card in every pack...$40-$50 a pack...in some tins, 3 cards, 1 'high end' card at $150 a tin...and you WANTED to pull the Mickey Mantle, the Joe DiMaggio, the Babe Ruth...but chances were...you pulled a Lenny Dykstra (who?), or a Bucky Dent...interesting ballplayers...but cards NOT WORTH $40-$50-$150...you took a chance...!

That rush of excitement when you peel back that wrapper...and you have the POSSIBILITY of pulling that GREAT, AWESOME and PERFECT card of your LONGING DESIRE...that's what your paying for!
You're in a casino, and you've plunked down $100 on a couple of numbers straight up at the Roulette Table...chances are, they're going to swoop up your chips and you're walking away WITH NOTHING!
With these Evolution Sketch cards, even though you may DISLIKE, or HATE or be really PISSED OFF you didn't pull the $$$$$$ sketch card, simple or detailed...you have an original drawing by an artist  or two.  You took a chance! 

After market coloring is just 'out there' for YOU TO DECIDE whether you want to 'hold 'em'...or up the ante.  You took a chance...if your card fell short of your expectations...then here's an opportunity for you to add a little color, or go pig-wild crazy and get a full color makeover...OR NOT...what is art worth to you?   You can't critique an artist for taking on a 1,000 card commission and not making them all little masterpieces...those simple line drawings...look simple...but they're really quite elegant and interesting even if it seems there are 50 or a hundred of the same image out there...they all have a quirky little difference and character that makes them unique!

I've opened about 20 boxes...and have pulled my share of 'disappointments'...for me it's pulling one of the 1,000'ers and their image is the same character...say, 2 Shums of Arwen...or 2 Woodside's of a open mouthed Orc...I took a chance...

If you don't want to take a chance, if you don't want the POSSIBILITY of the THRILL of opening a pack and peeling back those cards, DELIRIUM or DISAPPOINTMENT...then DON'T TAKE A CHANCE...go right to Ebay and buy exactly what you're looking for!  Pay what you're willing to spend or pay what someone is asking for on a Buy It Now auction...


But please...don't blame the artists...they're the people that made this EVOLUTION SKETCH CARD MANIA soooooooooooooooooooo....mad dog frantic hyper on-edge crazy delirious chatter-box endless discussion look-what-i-got gotta-get-more wow look see i-want-that gimme more that-lucky-sh_t-pulls-all-the-best-cards and i-never-get-THE BIG ONE gotta-bid-on-that just-one-more-i-swear....................GREAT! :'(

[darthmactor]

Have much coffee this morning, did you? 

[neko]

Man OCD.. we should have you on the payroll...LOL

WELL SAID!

[kbmum]

I respectfully disagree.  NO ONE said they'd only be happy if they pulled a sketch from one of a handful of artists.  NO ONE said that the sketch had to be worth the price of a box.  The complaint is that after spending $40 to $70 for a box, it isn't fair to the collector to pull a one-minute sketch.  The blame for that lies with both Topps and the handful of artists who drew those sketches.

[LikORish-Spider]

OCDLOTR, That was well said. Some of us (who, ME?  ) may be a little spoiled.

I was lucky to pull 5 Johnny Depp autograph cards   and 3 Birthday Paper Prop cards   from the Charlie and the Chocolate factory set. Needless to say I didn't, nor did anyone I know personally, pull one of the 18  Golden Ticket Props. I did buy two of them on ebay.
On the other hand I didn't pull a single Rupert Grint (Ron) autograph from 200 boxes of Goblet of Fire. I mentioned here it to illustrate how tuff the card was to find and to my distributor when I asked him to sell me one. He took it on himself to contact Artbox and they sent me a complimentary Rupert and a Gary Oldman autograph. It was darn nice of them. I never expected it nor did I ask for it. I guess that is what makes the difference.
As you say with sketches they are a completely different kind of card. And since the odds are easy to find and mostly well known; collectors might consider that when they buy. I have not bought a single unopened box of LOTR EVO cards. I did buy one lot of 15 sketches on ebay. They look better in hand than they do on the screen, that's for sure.

And I for one would be happy to have a one minute sketch by Picasso on a napkin.

[ztaylork]

it isn't fair to the collector to pull a one-minute sketch.  The blame for that lies with both Topps and the handful of artists who drew those sketches.

Its all in the eye of the beholder, and mostly in the name, if Kayanan would have thrown a few sketches in that were of 1 minute quick sketch drawing, I would argue that they would still bring over $50.  Or if Alan Lee would have wipped out 1000 similar quality drawings, people would have been lined up to get them, even if they didin't look any differently than some of the mentioned "one-minute sketches".  Don't get me wrong I get a lot more excited when I pull back the cards slowly and catche Kayanan's sig on the side, or Cat's sig on the bottom, or Cummens, or Walks, etc.  To be honest, when I first started collecting this set there were only a handful of artists that I really liked, and now I am up to really liking about 47   And I would rather pay the price we are paying for boxes right now, and spend the money and have a few of the sketches that were quickly done sent off and give my money straight to the artist to spend more time on them.

On a side note, I think it would be cool if topps paid each artist more for a few redemption card sketches (say 10 per artist that they pay a premium for, say $25 instead of $1.5) and the individuals can send these redemption cards straight to the artist to get a custom sketch card done ,now that would be cool.  Imagine pulling a redemption card for Kayanan, Cummens, Staggs, or any of the rest of the 47 amazing artists for this set.  Anyways, just my thoughts.

[ocdlotr]

I respectfully disagree.  NO ONE said they'd only be happy if they pulled a sketch from one of a handful of artists.  NO ONE said that the sketch had to be worth the price of a box.  The complaint is that after spending $40 to $70 for a box, it isn't fair to the collector to pull a one-minute sketch.  The blame for that lies with both Topps and the handful of artists who drew those sketches.

I respectfully disagree too...You state  "NO ONE said that the sketch had to be worth the price of a box."...
In your very next line you write..."The complaint is that after spending $40 to $70 for a box, it isn't fair to the collector to pull a one-minute sketch."...
So, in fact...you are saying EXACTLY THAT...1...you don't expect a card to be worth $40-$70...and then...2...You don't want a one minute sketch!...

...well, what is it you WANT...a 2 minute sketch, a 5 minute sketch...does someone else want a 10 minute sketch, or someone else any card with RED, or Frodo...or...whatever!...Art is such a personal thing for the artist...and obviously, also such a personal thing for those who want to collect it...

...just before this thread...LikORish-Spider wrote..."And I for one would be happy to have a one minute sketch by Picasso on a napkin."  This is brilliant!   Why?  Because most people HATE Picasso, they think his work is child-like, cartoonish...too many different styles...a womanizer...you name it...but because of his $$$ FAME, everyone wants anything by Picasso, myself included (except for the lithos out now from the 'estate' of Picasso stamped for authenticity)...

Look, there are cards I have been disappointed with...not on Ebay but from Hobby box pulls...cards that are worth under $5 on Ebay...maybe less...or nothing...BUT...ART IS WORTH NOTHING!!!...AND...EVERYTHING!!!  To my mother Damien Hirst and his Shark Contemplating Existence/Death, or his Spin Paintings, or his Pills or his photo-realistic pieces..to a 77 year old Italian grandmother that refuses to believe Michelangelo may have been bisexual, Hirst's work, or Schnabel's , even Warhol's and most contemporary art is pure bullsh_t...AND... I would say that probably 80% or more of the world's population too busy with trying to survive...think the same way!

Richard Serra (contemporary sculptor) doesn't believe architecture is art...why?...if you have to plan where a bathroom goes, or stairs, then the 'creation' becomes FUNCTIONAL...to him, ART SERVES NO FUNCTION OTHER THAN IT'S EXPERIENCE!!!   I would guess most architects would disagree...I disagree...get it...we all have different ideas of what GOOD...or GREAT...or for that matter what BAD ART is!

The Gurierrez sketch that started this whole thing...I LOVE IT...simple, minimal and comes in various different levels of existence...simple line, pencil shades and ink wash or marker heavy definition...get 'em all and have the entire collection!   Think positive!

[Eve]

The Gurierrez sketch that started this whole thing...I LOVE IT...simple, minimal and comes in various different levels of existence...simple line, pencil shades and ink wash or marker heavy definition...get 'em all and have the entire collection!   Think positive!

So, do you want to trade?

[Sharon]

To add my two penneth.  When sketches from this set first appeared there was a lot of misunderstandings about what people were unhappy with.  It was felt that some people were complaining about the sketches because they were 'cartoonish' but in fact what collectors were unhappy about was the effort that went into some of the sketches, not the style.

I had a very specific idea in my mind as to what style of sketch I liked which has now been broadened by this set - I actually like some of the Orc helmets.  The ones I don't like are the sketch cards that are so obviously just three or four lines that are completely unidentifiable.  A lot has been made over how much the artists were paid per sketch but surely they knew this before they took the commission?  They could have told Topps that was not enough to produce a decent sketch and turned down the job.  Likewise the time scales have been mentioned.  If an artist thought they could not produce 1000 sketches in the time limit why didn't they agree to do, say, 500.  

I am a paper pusher by profession.  My job is not creative, well paid or essential to the running of the world.  But no matter how disheartened I am by this job I am satisfied in the knowledge that I am doing the best I can.  Which brings me on to one post I read on another forum by one of the LOTR artists.  The general gist was that he had screwed himself on another set by doing colour sketches and that on the LOTR set he was looking very much to the after market.  Now that is fine if it were just for colouring but he actually stated, on an open forum that at least some of his cards were drawn very lightly so they could be erasable.  Now what if I pulled one of those cards and couldn't afford to pay for it to be re-drawn?  Is that just my bad luck?  No I don't think it is.

My point here is that whilst there are lots of styles of sketch, some realistic, some cartoonish, some pencil, some colour, I, as the buyer, should be able to expect that they are the best an artist can produce given the various constraints.  I don't want to read that that my four line sketch was done like that so the artist can make money after the event.  I have already paid for the card by buying the box and if I choose to ask the artist to do after market work on it, it is to improve the card, not bring it up to an acceptable standard.  And yes I know what is acceptable in art is a loaded question.  My answer is a card the artist is happy to put their name to, not one they are looking to erase as soon as possible.

This is the first time I have made a long comment about the sketches and I do want to say that the majority of artist (not just the ones posting on the Shack) produced cards they can be proud of.  As I said the different types and styles are amazing.  I just don't like to think I am having the mick taken out of me, which I do with some of these cards.

[grecopa]

The Gurierrez sketch that started this whole thing...I LOVE IT...simple, minimal and comes in various different levels of existence...simple line, pencil shades and ink wash or marker heavy definition...get 'em all and have the entire collection!   Think positive!

So, do you want to trade?

[kbmum]

I respectfully disagree too...You state  "NO ONE said that the sketch had to be worth the price of a box."...
In your very next line you write..."The complaint is that after spending $40 to $70 for a box, it isn't fair to the collector to pull a one-minute sketch."...
So, in fact...you are saying EXACTLY THAT...1...you don't expect a card to be worth $40-$70...and then...2...You don't want a one minute sketch!...

...well, what is it you WANT...a 2 minute sketch, a 5 minute sketch...does someone else want a 10 minute sketch, or someone else any card with RED, or Frodo...or...whatever!...Art is such a personal thing for the artist...and obviously, also such a personal thing for those who want to collect it...

I stand by my statements.  The sketch doesn't have to be worth what I paid for the box, but I damned well don't want to pull crap, either.  Most of the sketches for this set show that the artist put some effort into his or her work.  It just isn't fair to a collector to pull one that required little thought and even less effort.

Sharon, you make some excellent points.  I was also upset by those same comments on another forum.  I had been looking at buying a card by one of the artists in question just so I could have him do some work on the sketch.  After reading his comments, I decided that I would never him give my money, because that would only encourage him to treat future sets in the same manner.  Maybe one little commission won't make any difference to him, but I'm careful where I spend my trading card dollars and I'd rather give that money to another artist who cares a bit more that people are happy to pull her or his sketch from a box.

[gimli]

my comment on this matter is that Art is subjective

and people have the right to analyse Art within their own opinion

I have studied art history and I have to say Picasso was a genious, in my opinion, but others think his work is rubbish each stand point is valid

i understand that the Artists involed will defend their art (as they should)

But one persons Art is another persons rubbish, the percieved value of a sketch is what you beleive it is worth and if you beleive it worthless or priceless that is and will always be down to the individual

[grecopa]

Let's keep some perspective on this, shall we?  If I had $500 to plunk down on my favorite sketch card I certainly would.  But the reason these cards are selling for so much is because they are part of a limited collectors set, not because they should be hanging in the Louvre.  Why else would someone pay hundreds of dollars for a sketch on an official card that they could get on a plain commission card for about $50-60?

[ocdlotr]

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote...I have that card already, bought it on Ebay for $6 and another with a much darker background for $22...both great prices for interesting takes on this whole wide array of LOTR imagery...sorry you don't feel the same way.  The people that pulled those cards didn't want to keep them either and put them up for auction.  That's what you should do if you don't want to keep the card.  If I didn't have the card you were so upset about, I'd trade for a card of similar value...to me.  Sorry you're bitter about your experience. 
You bought a Hobby box and you pulled a card worth $5...that's that...like picking the wrong horse in the Derby. buying a losing Lottery ticket...what you fail to see is the element of chance. You took a chance, and in your eyes...lost.  In my eyes, you pulled a card worth $5-7...with another box maybe you pull a $500 Staggs, or a $2,000 Kayanan, or a box with NO SKETCH CARDS AT ALL! (Which you'll probably quote as being as good as the Gutierrez card you pulled with the laughing emoticon...wow...LOL).
Why don't you email the artist directly with your 'concerns'...they all have websites and email addresses.
I'm only stating the obvious...these are trading cards...the inserts YOU MAY GET are of varying VALUE...you take a chance at pulling an insert worth LESS, FAR LESS, MORE, and FAR MORE...than the AVERAGE insert...a chance.  
Why have the RETAIL boxes LOWERED in price since the start of  all this.  
Simple, because there are thousands of Frodo's, and Merry's and Pippin's out there worth the same $5-7.  But in Retail there's only 7 variations of 'high end' inserts to be had.

With the Hobby boxes...not only are there 47 varieties, but each variety has between 80 and 500 variations...some very rare, some rare, some common, some multiples of common...the Gutierrez is a multiple of a common...

If your card means nothing to you... sell it, trade it, give it away, mail it back to Topps, color it yourself...it's your property...

And if you choose NOT to give your $$$ to an artist that would expect AFTER MARKET $ and made sketches on cards light enough to erase and then redo...then that's your choice also...may even be your moral obligation...perhaps this ongoing dialogue or your written concerns to Topps may even change their policy or quality control or add a 'blank card' insert  for an artists card like a previous post (GREAT IDEA!) or result in not using that artist for future sketch cards...

All the variation, the dialogue, the commraderie, the bitter angst, the disappointment, the posts and the WOW of every great pull or Ebay buy...even, and especially, the sarcasm... ...the artists that respond on this forum, the serious and casual collecter...all of it is...fascinating entertainment...real life chatter...let's turn it up a notch!

[Sharon]

ocdlotr you seem totally obsessed with how much a card is worth.  I am a collector and the cards will remain in my collection.  I buy cards to enjoy them, not as an investment.  Whether it is a Staggs or a Booth, the picture is more important than the name.

[ocdlotr]

"ocdlotr you seem totally obsessed with how much a card is worth.  I am a collector and the cards will remain in my collection."

Actually, my sentiments exactly...if you've read anything I've ever written on these boards before under different Topics, you must know that my only interest in these cards is the drawings themselves...as artworks by a variety of artists that have interpreted both Tolkein AND Jackson's interpretation of Tolkein in their own idiosyncratic and stylistically different ways!
I really don't care what a card's actual value is...I'm a collector also and WOULD NEVER SELL ANY LOTR SKETCH CARD I OWN OR MAY HAVE 'AFTER MARKET' COLORED...
my only interest is in the sketches, washes, detailed drawings and miniature paintings that have been, and are, what makes this set so GREAT.

My mention of $ is in response to those who are equating 'simple sketch' bad pulls to the prices of Hobby boxes...and my take is...you take a chance...pure and simple...whether it's a card you LOVE or a card you DISLIKE...money has NOTHING to do with it!

I'm saying, if that simple sketch was done by Klee or Lee or Peter Jackson or Kayanan or Charles Manson...if you like it...GREAT!...if you don't...YOU TOOK A CHANCE...don't critisize the artist!  It's a drawing THEY WERE SATISFIED WITH DOING, it was a drawing TOPPS THOUGHT GOOD ENOUGH TO INCLUDE in this Evolution set, it just happens to be a drawing YOU DO NOT necessarily LOVE or LIKE or may NEVER LOOK AT AGAIN.

Money has NOTHING to do with it, and I relegate ZERO importance to the $$$ value of Sketch card out there...I bid on what I love and would like to include in my collection...period.

[kbmum]

don't critisize the artist!  It's a drawing THEY WERE SATISFIED WITH DOING, it was a drawing TOPPS THOUGHT GOOD ENOUGH TO INCLUDE in this Evolution set, it just happens to be a drawing YOU DO NOT necessarily LOVE or LIKE or may NEVER LOOK AT AGAIN.

Ah, now you've hit on the problem.  It's very, very sad if an artist is satisfied with a few lines on a card, when his or her reputation with the card collecting community is on the line.  Maybe the all-mighty Topps doesn't mind, but other card manufacturers have or are looking into sketches for their sets, and some of those artists might find that they're not being asked to do work for them. 

It's also really infuriating that Topps thought those cards were good enough to be included in the set.  Considering the number of bad sketches that end up on eBay, some of them included in multiple card lots because they won't sell for much if anything on their own, this isn't the opinion of just one or two people.  If I were an artist, I'd be embarrassed to submit some of those sketches.  I certainly wouldn't submit the equivalent in my line of work.

[Anna]

The Gurierrez sketch that started this whole thing...I LOVE IT...simple, minimal and comes in various different levels of existence...simple line, pencil shades and ink wash or marker heavy definition...get 'em all and have the entire collection!   Think positive!

If that's the case, then why won't you trade with Eve?

[beckham1]

OCD, I can tell you as someone who also collects sports cards that a $150 premium product by a nonsport company would cause a major uproar.  Look at the SW Evolution that Topps is doing people are going nuts because they are putting 1/1 cut signatures in the product.  I don't care because that is common in sports card release, but most nonsport collectors do.  Nonsports and sports card collectors are very different, if you have been collecting nonsports for some time you already know that.  If you are fairly new to nonsports cards you will learn that. 

Nonsports card collectors EXPECT value in there boxes something Inkworks, Rittenhouse, and Breygent (etc) who are focused on nonsports sets understand.  Topps doesn't they are really a sports card manufacturer.  That is exactly why Inkworks (for example on almost all of their sets) have 2 premium inserts as well as a couple of level of chase cards.  If you buy a box of Lost for example worst case scenario you are likely going to get 3-4 puzzle cards, 2 cards of the 6 card chase, 1 boxtopper, and one auto and costume card (which are likely to have a value of $15-$25).  That is what these people are referring to and expect.  Not 1 box as a "lotto ticket", they don't want lotto tickets, not for $35, $50, $75, and sure as heck not $150.

If you have a lot of experience with nonsports card I apologize, I can understand where you are coming from, but that is not the way most nonsports card collectors think.  You should adjust your mind frame if you are going to post with people who have a different collectors mentality.

I will leave you with one final example.  Look into the Doom Movie card set by Artbox.  It was supposed to have costumes, props and autos.  It came out and only had autos one per box.  NO ONE would touch that set even though The Rock auto card was going for $150. 

If that was a sports card set people would because they like to go for the lotto pull.  Plain and simple that is the difference between sports and nonsports collectors. 

Final statement is IMO Roz and Mark established this forum for collectors to connect and share there excitements and dissapointments in trading cards.  They don't police the site like other sites.  We are happy to have artists as well as collectors.  If someone wants to criticize an artist(s) who did this set that is their choice.  Who are you to tell them they can't you certainly don't have to agree with them and can post your opinion, but come on. 

These artists are all adults and for pete's sake I would guess being artists they have had both people who loved there work and people who didn't.  I think they can handle it and they certainly are more than welcome to give there POV.  You may love every sketch, but most people don't....................................................and whatever your POV that is OK.

[ocdlotr]

Sorry, took a dinner break...now let's get back to the action.
First...

If that's the case, then why won't you trade with Eve?

Do you read? I've stated now for the 3rd time...I already own that particular card.

I think the whole difference here is that sketches are involved...not autos, not costume cards or pieces of sets, artwork...artist's interpretations of the Trilogy...plain and simple.
You like them, great. You don't, don't buy them.